EP006: Getting To Know QD-OLED with Bram Desmet

Episode 006
Duration 57:33

Guest
Bram Desmet - CEO Flanders Scientific
Bram Desmet

http://www.flandersscientific.com


The Future Of Reference Display Technologies

Over the past couple of decades, we’ve seen and/or used nearly every display technology available. From CRT, Plasma, LED/LCD (including various FALD designs), RGB OLED, W-RGB OLED, LMCL, and probably a few others we’re forgetting.

As colorists, we’re constantly searching for the ‘perfect’ display technology. While we realize there is no such thing as perfection – there is nothing wrong with the pursuit of it!

Although we haven’t found perfect yet, Quantum Dot OLED (QD-OLED for short) might be as close to perfection as we’ve seen.

In this installment of The Offset Podcast, we sit down with our good friend, display technology guru, and CEO of Flanders Scientific, Bram Desmet to discuss if quantum physics really has anything to do with this display technology, the massive improvements that QD OLED provides over other display tech and some key features of QD OLED that you’ll want to consider before your next reference monitor purchase.

Here are some of the things we discuss in this episode:

  • Why QD-OLED is poised to become a ubiquitous display technology and one that has large potential to stick around for a long time
  • Do quantum Dots really have anything to do with Quantum physics or is the name just a marketing thing?
  • The ‘simplicity’ of QD-OLED panel design
  • W-RGB OLED vs QD-OLED
  • Dramatic improvements of QD-OLED vs other display technologies
  • And lots more!

Notable QD-OLED Features

For the past several years, many in the industry have pointed to W-RGB OLED as the future of reference monitoring. As we discuss in the show, W-RGB OLEDs can look fantastic, but for HDR mastering they suffer from volumetric collapse. Because of the use of a white sub-pixel as a ‘boost’ the brighter the display gets, the more severe volumetric collapse becomes.

What this means in practical terms is that bright colors like you’d find in specular highlights can’t actually be displayed correctly and instead are often shown as white.  While that doesn’t sound like a serious issue, you might be in for a surprise when that same content is viewed on a display that doesn’t suffer from volumetric collapse.

Because QD-OLED is a truly additive RGB display and doesn’t use a white subpixel, it doesn’t suffer from volumetric collapse  Bright reds, blues, and greens can be true rather than dim, and specular highlights can be nuanced rather than just white.

This great graphic from Flanders Scientific helps visualize the volumetric collapse that W-OLEDS suffer from vs QD OLED that’s used on the XMP310, XMP550, and XMP650. QD-OLED doesn’t suffer from volumetric collapse

 

Another game-changing feature of QD OLED is its extremely wide viewing angle.  You’re probably used to with other display technologies seeing color or luminance shifts as you move around a display.  With a super wide viewing angle, QD-OLED displays can be viewed from a much wider angle without a noticeable shift – this is great news for big panels to be used as a single display in a room.

QD OLED offers a super wide viewing angle that is pretty unbelievable and can make a notable difference when multiple people need to gather around a monitor.

 

Over the past few years in an effort to have very high-nit HDR, FALD (full-array local dimming) has been employed. While FALD displays can be really really good, there is no getting around the physics of how they work.

FALD displays can exhibit blooming and motion issues, which can be especially noticeable with small points of light.  QD-OLED as a truly emissive display technology doesn’t exhibit these artifacts.

QD OLED doesn’t suffer from blooming and other motion artifacts that FALD displays can exhibit.

 

In the episode, we cover some additional considerations of QD-OLED but to put it simply, this is the best display technology we’ve used to date.  So much so we’re in the process of switching out our displays to an all-QD-OLED ecosystem.

Huge thanks to Bram for joining us.

Enjoy the episode!

-Robbie & Joey


The Offset Podcast is sponsored by Flanders Scientific -leaders in color-accurate display solutions for professional video. Whether you are a colorist, editor, DIT, or broadcast engineer Flanders Scientific has a professional display solution to meet your needs. Learn more at FlandersScientific.com 

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Transcript

01:00:00:05 - 01:00:16:11
Robbie
Hey there. Welcome back to another installment of the Offset podcast. And today we're taking a look at QD OLED - a display technology that's taking the industry by storm.

01:00:16:13 - 01:00:35:03
Joey
This podcast is sponsored by Flanders Scientific Leaders in Color Accurate Display Solutions for Professional Video. Whether you're a colorist, an editor, a ditsy, or a broadcast engineer, Flanders Scientific has a professional display solution to meet your needs. Learn more at Flanders Scientific.com

01:00:35:05 - 01:00:42:16
Robbie
All right, Joey. Today we are talking about something that is near and dear to the old colorist heart. That is.

01:00:42:21 - 01:00:43:18
Joey
Quantum physics.

01:00:43:20 - 01:01:06:13
Robbie
Quantum? Physics?. Exactly. Display Technologies. Right. It seems like all we ever do talk about ruminate on is what the latest and greatest display technology is for reference monitors. Because right after all, reference monitors are, you know, the sort, if you will, of the colorist. I often tell people, right, that, you know, trust is what a colorist does.

01:01:06:13 - 01:01:28:00
Robbie
Right. And if you can't trust the monitor that you're looking at to make creative decisions and technical decisions, well, then you have nothing. And, you know, so therefore, the reference monitor is something that we're constantly taking a look at, looking at technologies, how they're developing, you know, obviously cosplayers in there. But we always want the best. We want no compromises, you know, if possible.

01:01:28:02 - 01:01:49:07
Robbie
And, you know, I would say over the past 20 years, I mean, you and I have what probably seem pretty much every major display technology out there. I was thinking back about before recording this today, and I was thinking about the very first really expensive piece of gear that I owned, and it was probably right around 2000, 2001, something like that.

01:01:49:07 - 01:02:10:08
Robbie
I purchased a Sony BVM, CRT, the 31 or 32 inch CRT that was basically, I don't know, the size of like a small like a like you go, right? I mean, the thing probably weighed £450 still, I bought that used, which in hindsight was probably stupid because CRT is, you know, they go, they go wacky pretty quick. But that was my first.

01:02:10:08 - 01:02:23:07
Robbie
I was on CRT that made the move to LCD and the 4000 flavors of LCD and eventually to all LED and all the various flavors of that. You got a similar path. Yeah.

01:02:23:09 - 01:02:47:13
Joey
Yeah. You know, I started out with the BVM CRT is because back in the CRT days that was kind of the name of the game right? But that was the that was the broadcast standard. They had these simply blessed bottle wrappers in their CRT is and everybody used them. So, you know, they were by default, but not just the reference because of the performance, but because everybody else was using them.

01:02:47:18 - 01:03:02:22
Robbie
So you could get you could get the go to one shop or whatever. You had a fighting chance that it would look more or less the same. Of course, back then CRT days calibration was like, you know, an engineer walking in the room, putting up some colored bars and going, Yeah, that looks right.

01:03:02:23 - 01:03:35:09
Joey
You know, it was extremely basic. So having everybody on the same technology was a simplifying factor. Then CRT is went away because of various environmental factors and manufacturing factors made them not a viable business model anymore and everybody immediately stopped making them. Yep. Then LCDs came on the scene. There were many LCD is claiming to be CRT replacements and the initial kind of adoption of that, a lot of them weren't, but they were close and they got better and better and better.

01:03:35:13 - 01:03:57:08
Joey
And right when they were getting kind of to the level of perfect. Org B top of mission, all LEDs came out and blew everyone's faces off for SDR, and so we all moved in that direction. They had incredible performance. But then HDR technology comes along and has its own set of requirements that the biology can't just just can't do.

01:03:57:14 - 01:04:09:05
Joey
Yeah. So they kind of go away and various different technologies, as I'm sure we'll talk about, come in to fill that gap. I'm skipping plasma because I never got into the.

01:04:09:06 - 01:04:10:11
Robbie
man on consumer.

01:04:10:11 - 01:04:14:02
Joey
Plasma is for reference, but that was the thing for a long time as well.

01:04:14:06 - 01:04:16:11
Robbie
Plasmas were my jam. I love this.

01:04:16:13 - 01:04:39:15
Joey
But yeah, so I mean, the technology has evolved and evolved and evolved and we've kind of seen all of it from the beginning to now. We're looking at what I think and I think you agree is kind of the foreseeable future of reference display technology, which is like the studio logo or a quantum dot OLED display.

01:04:39:20 - 01:04:59:16
Robbie
Totally. And it's it's been a magical mystery tour of displays over the years. And for anybody who knows me and Joe, you know me well, that I'm on this constant path of trying to find perfection. And I have to be reminded by industry peers and friends you amongst them, but you're a little bit more of an enabler than most people.

01:04:59:18 - 01:05:27:06
Robbie
And that is, you know, trying to perfection is not something that that can be attained but can still lead, you know, we first started hearing about quantum dots. I did anyway, probably back in 2014, 2015, somewhere in that range. And they really came into our workflows recently when Flanders Scientific, who are good friends of our sponsors of the podcast, introduced a line of cut OLED panels themselves.

01:05:27:08 - 01:05:53:19
Robbie
But you know what? I think that, you know, instead of you and I blabbing about QD OLED and the display trajectory that we've taken over the past 20 years, we should we should phone a friend, I think is what we should do. And we just we just so happen to have on the line ready for answer questions, hard quantum physics questions we have Bram Desmet from Flanders Scientific from is the general manager and head honcho over at FSI.

01:05:53:19 - 01:05:56:22
Robbie
Brown Welcome to the Offset podcast.

01:05:57:00 - 01:05:59:11
Bram
Thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate it.

01:05:59:12 - 01:06:27:20
Robbie
Bram over the past 20 or so years has been a very good friend, and whether he likes it or not, a technical resource slash manual for everything, display related and calibration related for Joe and I, he is I'm amazingly generous with his time answering questions from the mundane to the technical, and don't let him kid you even though he likes watching Formula One and going out into the woods and camping with his family.

01:06:27:20 - 01:06:47:12
Robbie
He is a geek at heart and does love talking about displays. So we're going to for the next half an hour or 40 minutes or so, we're going to sort of dig into that. So, Brahm, thanks again for being here. And, you know, the first thing I kind of want to, you know, ask you about research, you know, sort of as a discussion starter here is how did we get here, right, Kunio?

01:06:47:12 - 01:07:11:19
Robbie
What is this new thing that everybody's, you know, hot to trot about? And we'll talk about that in depth. But from your perspective, what has a you know, the past 15 to 20 years look like in sort of, you know, running a display company. But also, you know, what, you know, from kind of in the display industry where what is the trajectory been and what is it, you know, kind of how did we arrive at Kudo and what that's about?

01:07:11:21 - 01:07:40:13
Bram
Sure. Yeah. I mean, the best I could describe the display industry as a whole besides Flanders Scientific, although we've certainly been a part or a victim of that, is a fits and starts, right? So like, there's always this new stuff on the horizon. It seems like it last for a few years and then the technology goes away for whatever typically commercial reasons more than anything.

01:07:40:15 - 01:08:01:19
Bram
And so things are made kind of for our very niche industry. And that's such a big part of the problem is that it's such a niche industry. Right? And you guys know this. I mean, a lot of these display technologies that we fall in love with, even though Joey wasn't a fan of plasma, most people love plasma, as a lot of people thought those were a suitable replacement for CRT.

01:08:01:19 - 01:08:41:18
Bram
But time after time, kind of the leading display technology for our professional world has gone away because it just didn't have a broad enough market outside of our world. And so if you'd asked me five years ago, will it be the reference technology, I would have told you you were crazy because we were still looking at large video led and then some LEDs coming to the market and w old was, you know, kind of a halfway technology was good for SDR, but it wasn't great for HDR and the path forward looked like, Hey, people really need bright HDR displays.

01:08:41:20 - 01:09:07:22
Bram
That's probably not going to happen with massive displays given all the restrictions we had with the materials and what they could do but can control and really flip that on its head, it's enabled HDR LEDs. So we get all the things that we love about OLEDs and we get it in, you know, in a performance factor that works for HDR and beautifully that has huge markets outside of our industry.

01:09:07:22 - 01:09:28:10
Bram
So it's the first time that I feel like we're kind of closed loop in the ecosystem in a way that we just haven't been before. And that's the thing that I'm most excited about is that, you know, it can get a studio LED display for, you know, a computer monitor. I can get a cuddle, a reference monitor in a small in a big size.

01:09:28:12 - 01:09:48:12
Bram
Guys on set can use studio LED monitors. Directors can see stuff on to deal with monitors and then producers can watch stuff at home on a studio LED TV. And it's you know, you were talking about that consistency with CRT back in the day, but most consumer TVs weren't some DC phosphors, right? So they were using cheaper foster sets.

01:09:48:13 - 01:09:58:04
Bram
This is like as closed loop as this ecosystem has ever gotten. And I think that's really good for creatives because it gives you the best chance of stuff just looking the same everywhere.

01:09:58:06 - 01:10:22:21
Joey
Yeah, yeah. Because at the same time, right, we have new absolute standards like PCU with standardized tone mapping, like Dolby Vision. So on the transmission and playback side, we are also now closing that loop with the consumer where you know what, we're actually sending them goes through less nonsense before it hits their screen. And now they're screen can also be of a caliber that it can really reproduce what we're doing here.

01:10:22:22 - 01:10:33:04
Joey
I think it's I think right now it's safe to say we are the closest on the aggregate of most of the audience seeing something comparable to what we saw on the mass drink suite.

01:10:33:06 - 01:10:55:16
Robbie
Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. Now, guys, to me, I don't know. I know both of you are much more knowledgeable about the technical side of this than I am, but I remember the first time I heard Quantum Dots and I was like, okay, so I know what happened here, right? An engineer went to some marketing guy and said, Hey, man, we've got this cool new technology, but we don't know what to call it.

01:10:55:18 - 01:11:01:02
Robbie
And the marketing guy was like, how about quantum them? yeah, yeah.

01:11:01:04 - 01:11:02:05
Bram
Yeah, exactly.

01:11:02:07 - 01:11:25:07
Robbie
All right, so let's start there. Quantum dots. Is this a is this a marketing thing only, Right? Or does this have some basis in reality? Because when I hear Quantum, I think, you know, quantum physics, science fiction, quantum entanglement. Is my monitor going to be quantum entangled with Jodi's monitor at home And they show you the same thing, like what's going on?

01:11:25:07 - 01:11:31:20
Robbie
Why do we call this quantum dots? And what's like, how does quantum dots work?

01:11:31:22 - 01:12:05:06
Bram
So the really cool thing about this is that it is actually not marketing B.S. like this. Really, this term quantum is actually use appropriately. And so that the basic premise behind it. Right, is that quantum dots are essentially really, really small semiconductors. And the size is the key thing here. They are so tiny that their behavior is really governed by quantum mechanics.

01:12:05:06 - 01:12:23:17
Bram
Quantum dots are like usually between two, maybe one and ten nanometers in size, right? The ones we use usually between two and seven nanometers in size. You're talking like 1/10000 the width of a human hair, right? Yeah. So it's only a few times bigger is the term.

01:12:23:19 - 01:12:49:06
Joey
You know, when we talk about the term quantum, right. The term quantum specifically refers to a size, not a realm, right? Quantum mechanics refers to the interaction of subatomic particles as in particles smaller than the atom. So we are dealing with incredibly small scale. And the cool thing is that the physics changes at that scale, right? Everything above that, we think of it as like Newtonian physics, right?

01:12:49:06 - 01:13:07:14
Joey
Like opposite, but equal reaction. You hit the ball, the ball moves right? In the quantum world, things behave very differently. And that's where the QED alleged or the quantum dots in the old get their little magical ability to do what they do, which is change color of light.

01:13:07:17 - 01:13:29:19
Robbie
Yeah. And so what's interesting, what's interesting about this to me is that as I started researching it, you know, and trying to wrap my head around the technical part about this, you know, that subatomic atomic size, you know, scale is is pretty magical. And would I correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but quantum dots, basically the be the the size of that data.

01:13:29:21 - 01:13:40:17
Robbie
In other words, how many atoms are kind of bound together in any given configuration also determine what the color is going to be emitted by that collection of dots. Is that correct?

01:13:40:18 - 01:14:04:02
Bram
You're right about the size, Rabi And that's the nanocrystals for like the red and the green are exactly the same material. It's just the size that makes it different. So you have, for example, Green is about like around three nanometers in size is the size of that quantum dot material and therefore red light, usually around six or seven nanometers in size light.

01:14:04:02 - 01:14:24:18
Joey
Is, you know, photons are both a wave and a particle, right? So we're conveying energy in with these particles, in these waves, and they're coming out as particles in waves, but of a different wavelengths. Well, I think is really cool about this, not to get too deep into the quantum physics aspect, but the second this hit, I was like, I love physics.

01:14:24:18 - 01:14:51:15
Joey
I'm going to get on Wikipedia overnight and just read all of it. And I'm sure we'll have somebody in the comments that knows more than me. But my general understanding of this is that at that small scale, right, just like an electron can only occupy certain energy levels, there's no smooth movement between certain energy levels. But I'm like, you said, quantum zation is discrete levels, right?

01:14:51:19 - 01:15:27:05
Joey
So the photons that their scale can only occupy certain spaces, right? They can't be a gradient. So when you force them through a pipe of a certain width, something called quantum confinement happens where they restructure themselves in those finite areas corresponding to the size of the medium they're going through, and that equates a new wavelength. So you come in as blue, which is a very short wavelength, and you go out as a longer wavelength, different wavelength, whatever the scale is of the quantum dot material you're going for, you.

01:15:27:05 - 01:15:46:15
Bram
Start with a light source that's a blue LED material and that goes to a quantum dot color conversion layer. And those quantum dots, it's not a it's not a film, right? They're actually inkjet printed into place over that blue collar material. Now, because you're starting with blue light, you don't have to make blue light, right? So the blue just passes through.

01:15:46:17 - 01:15:53:10
Bram
But then for red and green, that light from the blue light is absorbed and then reinvented at a different wavelength like we're talking about.

01:15:53:10 - 01:16:18:16
Joey
So you do have, you know, fully 100% to 0% dimming on a pixel level for red, green and blue. So essentially it has all the capability you would get out of a full emissive. RG Bipolar display because we can use these quantum dots to convert colors, not filter colors, whereas an LCD we're filtering out the colors we don't want here, we're only emitting the colors we do want.

01:16:18:16 - 01:16:23:06
Joey
And I think that is what leads to some of the incredible performance.

01:16:23:08 - 01:16:23:14
Robbie
That's.

01:16:23:14 - 01:16:42:11
Joey
Seen with these displays. So I mean. Brahm Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, why this particular display technology is such a high performer in both SDR, HDR and the metrics we're using to kind of look at these displays and say, okay, this, this really ticks all the boxes, right? We know we're not compromising for HDR anymore.

01:16:42:13 - 01:17:13:09
Bram
A lot of colors fell in love with our go LEDs, right? Because this kind of like no nonsense, great SDR, great black levels, good uniformity, good off axis because it's per pixel light emission. You don't have the full array local dimming type artifacts or other LCD type issues. So it, it really is simple in a way, because if you want to get the best performance you want, typically in a massive display where each pixel is individually governed and if you want black, it could be turned completely off.

01:17:13:09 - 01:17:35:05
Bram
And so that's great. The problem was making it brighter. So with Quantum dot OLEDs, we're just able to take this kind of same thing that we've all loved about our SDR, RGV, OLEDs, and we've been able to transform them into technology that does that does HDR really, really well. And that's another kind of cool thing that I like about technology.

01:17:35:05 - 01:17:54:13
Bram
It's like a lot of HDR displays are good at being HDR, but they're kind of when you put them in SDR, people like RGB, you're like, they kind of prefer the old to be honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but with a quantum dot OLEDs like people like, yeah, Hey, this is the SDR experience I've always wanted and loved and now I can do HDR too.

01:17:54:19 - 01:17:56:23
Bram
I think that's kind of the most beautiful thing about it.

01:17:57:01 - 01:18:33:20
Robbie
So it strikes me in looking at like images of like the, I don't know the word for it with the layer stack or the backplane of these monitors. It also strikes me that when you compare traditional LCD designs, file designs to QTL lab, there's a lot less going on there in terms of the actual stack. So I'm not a physicist, but it would seem like you have a lot less loss, you know, a lot less loss of light and kind of filtering going on and potential places where there are, you know, additive mistakes made to that stack that, you know, reduced performance.

01:18:33:20 - 01:18:37:03
Robbie
Is that is that a scenario? That's a simplified way of saying it, but.

01:18:37:05 - 01:18:38:21
Bram
You're you're 100% I mean, the.

01:18:38:21 - 01:18:40:19
Robbie
Stack.

01:18:40:21 - 01:19:02:03
Bram
The stack is stupidly simple. You have an oxide backplane that drives that yellow material and that yellow material that excites the quantum dot material and you're done, right? So you're not going through complex panel stacks. I mean, the most complex panel stack is probably the w o led, right? So w OLEDs like the amount of transistors in a w a light is kind of insane.

01:19:02:08 - 01:19:17:15
Bram
It's like it's just so complex in terms of the just the amount of stuff that's going on there and that's what makes it inefficient and that's the other thing about QTL is like, why do they do HDR well, but because there's not a bunch of crap to go through. So it's a very efficient system.

01:19:17:17 - 01:19:41:16
Robbie
It strikes me to be talking about. W Well, let's just stop there for a second because for, I don't know, maybe almost going on ten years, it seemed like w Old Lad was like the hope of the industry, right? You know, the term LG all that has kind of become like Kleenex and tissue, right? Everybody is just sort of like, okay, well, look, we we know we have it all out on the wall and all the times are referring to all that.

01:19:41:18 - 01:20:02:09
Robbie
And, you know, my experience with them initially was, wow, they look beautiful, they're pain in the ass calibrate, but they look beautiful. And that progressed over the years to where like, man, these things can get pretty darn perfect in an SDR. But when we started transitioning over to HDR, it seemed like we had this big divide happen, right?

01:20:02:15 - 01:20:35:17
Robbie
People who were like, Well, no, I bought this reference monitor, it's good enough. And then you had people like, you know, Joey and a little bit yourself and that's cool. But there's there are some problems. And let's talk about volumetric collapse, because I think that's something that a lot of people really don't grasp all that well. And it is one of the things that Kudo led really a big issue that Kudo led solves right compared to W, RGV, OLEDs, what is volumetric collapse and why were we seeing it on W LEDs?

01:20:35:19 - 01:20:38:04
Robbie
Why is it a non-issue on QTL?

01:20:38:04 - 01:21:01:02
Bram
That's yeah. So display color volume collapse is kind of the terminology I've been encouraged to use by some of my color scientist friends. And so normally we represent colors out of grading systems, so everything over the wire essentially ends up being red, green, blue, right. And red, green and blue combined give us white light. Well, with a w our B, you don't really have that right.

01:21:01:02 - 01:21:22:19
Bram
So you have four sub pixels in that white. You often hear it referred to as a boost. Right. But it's not just a boost if you look at the way that most w OLEDs are driven, you never drive all four sub pixels at the same time. Typically you typically do a combination of red and green plus white or blue and red plus white or some sort of combination like that.

01:21:22:21 - 01:21:44:03
Bram
And for SDR, you can make that mimic an additive system, even though even at SDR levels, it's not truly behaving in an additive way, but you can mimic that behavior. But in HDR you can't. And all that simply means is if you've got a display that does a thousand nits, you should be able to do the green component of that's going to be the brightest thing, right?

01:21:44:03 - 01:22:04:04
Bram
So you add literally your green, red and blue channels together and the luminance of all of those pegged at 100% should give you the peak whites. If you add up all the luminance values. And what ends up happening is that a thousand that display should be able to do well over 600 nits. But a lot of these early LEDs or maybe doing 200, 250 nits.

01:22:04:06 - 01:22:28:14
Bram
And so the reason it gives a pleasing experience for for the home and what tone mapping employed and sorts of things like that is that you know, a lot of those bright spatulas do happen to be kind of along that neutral axis, right? So like a bright head, like a street light, it's relatively white. Where you get killed on those is a bright neon green sign, you know, bright red, neon green sign of bright fields.

01:22:28:16 - 01:22:49:13
Bram
Exactly. So these, you know, maybe not as natural colors, but things that do happen in content. And when you see one of those on a display that has display color volume collapse versus one that doesn't, it is pretty striking. You know, you get that beautiful red sports car that just looks flat for some reason when it's out in the sunlight.

01:22:49:15 - 01:23:09:07
Bram
And so with a truly additive system, you don't have that in most systems, most display systems, LCDs, pseudo LEDs or JBL LEDs are all additive. The problem with it is you don't know everything looks normal to you until you see it on a display that is additive. Yeah, well, what did I do?

01:23:09:09 - 01:23:29:21
Joey
That's kind of like the insidious thing about this, right? Because I've gotten into this argument with colorists all over the world. It's like the l I have my gold. Mine is the good one. I have the whatever somebody said was the right one to get it and somebody came in, calibrated it. I can master HDR on it and you can make a beautiful HDR image on it.

01:23:29:21 - 01:23:35:23
Joey
Sure. Yes. Because the failure mode of that biometric collapse is very pleasing to the eye, but it's to go with it.

01:23:35:23 - 01:23:37:17
Robbie
So it's to go white too, right.

01:23:37:17 - 01:23:38:07
Bram
Like yeah.

01:23:38:09 - 01:23:40:05
Robbie
It's just become neutral and kind of.

01:23:40:05 - 01:23:40:17
Bram
Like.

01:23:40:18 - 01:24:13:23
Joey
It looks filmic almost. It's beautiful. That's why they're great. Client or sorry, they're great, you know, just TV's HDR content looks beautiful on a W. Well, they're just watching it as a viewer. What concerns me as a colorist, like Rami, you said earlier, you know, knowing the actual truth of the image is, is our job, right? So if there are wide swaths of color in the HDR signal that you just can't see on this display, you can't master with it because okay, you could have hot pink highlights and never know and think I did the greatest great in the world.

01:24:14:04 - 01:24:19:05
Joey
And then you play it back on a display that has a full HDR color volume and your highlights are hot.

01:24:19:07 - 01:24:34:07
Robbie
You and it's never known. It's funny because we as Joey said, we've had this discussion and, and sometimes varying into arguments with people for four years and like this is B.S. Like that doesn't happen. You're an elitist, you're a snob.

01:24:34:08 - 01:24:44:19
Joey
There was so much like you said, there was so much hope around the LG OLEDs for the industry that people got really emotionally attached to them being the be all end all. And they do not like hearing.

01:24:44:19 - 01:25:05:11
Robbie
Especially especially at the price. Right. They didn't want to, didn't want to hear it. And it was funny because, you know, Joey and I have been, you know, evangelizing this this issue for a long time. And it's one of those things where like people like they just have to see it, you know, side by side. But I want to I want to pay you particular credit.

01:25:05:11 - 01:25:29:05
Robbie
BRAHM And they emphasized, you know, design and marketing team for this as well because you guys came up and we'll include this in the in the show notes for for the show right But you guys came up with this I think just perfect X you know explanation graphic that shows okay here's red green and blue on a WJR lead and this is what they're hitting that value wise and this is what it is on the video.

01:25:29:06 - 01:26:02:03
Robbie
And you suddenly go, that's what it means by volumetric collapse. My red is not this red. It's kind of a maroon darkish kind of thing or, you know, my green or my blue or whatever. And that really that really dials at home. I don't want to apu w rg be it all LEDs in general because one thing I think they have done for post-production color grading industries on a whole is that they open the door for a lot more people to get really much better images in general, right?

01:26:02:03 - 01:26:39:06
Robbie
They've been able to see things that look much better, you, HD size, whatever. Right. But with that said, I think that the arguments for WG argue people that as mainstream do have do have problems as we've explained. Now, another thing that kind of strikes me in going back to the the panel stack kind of thing, right? One thing that I've always been super sensitive to about with reference monitors is viewing the right one of the one of the stopgap technologies that appeared a number of years ago was the LMC, MCO technology, right where we were kind of, wow.

01:26:39:07 - 01:26:58:09
Robbie
You know, we but the industry was kind of stacking the LCD planes on top of each other and, you know, making these these great these great LCDs that had an led like performance in terms of black. But I don't know, man, I don't know. I don't know if you've had the same experience, then what? Great. When you are perfectly dead on to the monitor.

01:26:58:09 - 01:27:19:15
Robbie
Right. But you got a little bit off, they start warping color and changing contrast. And I've actually found the same thing with the Igbo LEDs to a lesser extent. You know, in our meeting and our main reviews, we have a big, you know, w rw all in the front. And if you're not, you know, in that cone of, you know, you know, a few degrees off center, it does change a little bit.

01:27:19:15 - 01:27:35:19
Robbie
It seems like maybe, maybe this is zero effect, but it seems like Studio LED has really kind of fix that problem to a large degree. And I'm wondering if it is a byproduct of that much less complicated, you know, layer stacked within the panel.

01:27:35:21 - 01:28:02:22
Bram
Yeah I mean, that's that's a huge part of it. So, you know, the panel manufacturers who make the panel manufacturer who makes the exterior panels will tell you as you look at the light dispersion from those, this is truly kind of dome shaped very what they call Lamberti and right so like it is really even and just super subtle falloff that's that's really not very specific so like at 60 degrees off axis which is hugely affects the display.

01:28:02:22 - 01:28:24:05
Bram
Right. These things still have over 80% of the luminance you have when you're standing straight in front of the display. All these people put these big displays in as client review displays. Right. Because that's what clients were starting to expect. Right. And the problem was that, you know, trying to get a client to sit where you want them isn't always the easiest thing.

01:28:24:05 - 01:28:33:02
Bram
You guys are doing this better than I would. You know. Here's your mark. Exactly. It's like there there's an X here you have still there does is do are.

01:28:33:02 - 01:28:59:14
Joey
Like as a monitor customer right as somebody shopping for a reference monitor you might think okay, viewing angle, I can deal with it. Right Right. But when you put it into the context of I'm going to be working with this every day, I'm going to have clients looking at it. I, I made that call. You know, when I bought my current reference monitor, I looked deeply at both the the LMC el thousand panel and the local dimming panel that I ended up buying.

01:28:59:16 - 01:29:23:09
Joey
And I, as we'll talk about local dimming panels aren't perfect either. They have their own set of idiosyncrasies that you have to deal with. But I felt that the viewing angle was so bad comparably between the two that I felt so much more comfortable with this because I could kind of move my head around a little bit and be comfortable where I was sitting without seeing visible color shifts on the W LEDs and even more so on the LMC.

01:29:23:09 - 01:29:41:02
Joey
LS. I feel like if I shift my chair a little bit, I see slight shifts and when we saw the first Kudo led panel that we saw and you walk in the room and you just kind of do a circle around it, it I mean, it's like in terms of viewing angle, it's like nothing I've ever seen since.

01:29:41:08 - 01:29:58:18
Robbie
I'll give you I'll give you a practical example of this. So Joe's right. We did. We should also say that we did we were lucky enough to be invited by Epstein Brand down to their L.A. offices last summer to kind of see a prototype version of the first, you know, their ax and P 550, which is now shipping, of course.

01:29:58:20 - 01:30:26:19
Robbie
And we did we did a couple of test grades on that monitor. And I was struck by that, too, Joy. But in practical terms, like I have an X and P 550 here at home now, right? And when I was on a a W audible before also an FSI monitor, I did find that like I had to kind of do this a little bit, slide to the side of the monitor, slide to the side of the monitor, maybe stand up or whatever, you know, and I would get slight differences to me, like it was almost like a saturation difference.

01:30:26:19 - 01:30:46:23
Robbie
Right? And that's kind of why I had moved my head. I am struck by this monitor. Doesn't matter if I'm walking into the room or I'm standing right in front of it or a little off to the side. It kind of just feels the same, which it's to be completely honest, it's a little off putting at first because it's like you're.

01:30:46:23 - 01:30:47:14
Joey
You're.

01:30:47:14 - 01:30:48:09
Bram
You're.

01:30:48:11 - 01:31:17:10
Robbie
You're just it's just something that you're not used to over the past decade or two with the monitor kind of sliding around, you're kind of expecting that change. And I think especially for the bigger ones, as you said, for like client monitoring, you know, those are from you guys. Those are available on a 55 and a 65 and that that can drastically impact room design, I think, because, you know, now, you know, now you can make decisions where people can, you know, whatever esthetics of the room where people are just more comfortable rather than having to force everybody to be, you know, super head on.

01:31:17:12 - 01:31:33:09
Bram
Yeah, I think a going back to what Joe was saying to like one of the issues with the LMC, all even if you had like a IGP in the room as a client monitor is that if the client had any view of your display as well, they're really concerned why things look so different from where they were sitting, right?

01:31:33:09 - 01:32:03:09
Bram
They'd be like, Your image looks really dark. What are you looking at? Because that doesn't look like what I'm looking at. And then with the audible is gets me really careful where you're sitting, because I do kind of have the cyan or kind of pink type shift, depending on where you're sitting. And well, Robbie, what you're mentioning with the with moving your head around is that the viewing angle on those when it came to color shift was actually kind of detrimental to the point where on a large panel sitting close enough, you're also axis of the corners enough to where the corners looked like different only.

01:32:03:11 - 01:32:04:01
Bram
And that's where they're.

01:32:04:01 - 01:32:04:09
Robbie
Moving.

01:32:04:14 - 01:32:27:15
Joey
That a little bit because, you know, panel size here is something that I think people need to change their expectations over, right? Because in the industry, the professional monitors have always been smaller and then we buy cheap consumer panels for the client monitor or playback monitor, whatever. Right. There's always been the attitude that the 30 inch should cost in dollars more than the 55 inch.

01:32:27:17 - 01:32:50:04
Joey
But now with the ideal, we can have 55, 65 inch full, full reference quality monitors. What's the reason? I mean, I know there's there's room layout reasons to go for smaller monitors or different arrangements, but I think something that people really got to start thinking about is that a 55 inch or a 65 inch can be a reference monitor.

01:32:50:04 - 01:32:51:18
Joey
Now that's never happened before you.

01:32:51:20 - 01:33:10:04
Bram
It's a it's a huge kind of paradigm shift for people to get their heads wrapped around. And I'll be the first person to say, and I said this even before we had a 31, it does not work for all rooms. There are rooms where you are going to have to have two displays, end of story, period. And that's what people do.

01:33:10:05 - 01:33:37:02
Bram
But there are room layouts where a 55 or 65, if it's of reference quality, can be used as a single monitor and it does once and for all. And this discussion of, hey, the small monitor doesn't look like the big monitor. And what I always thought was so funny is, you know, talking to color is like one of the biggest struggles I hear from them is that they end up playing, you know, what I always say is part color scientist and part psychologist, right?

01:33:37:04 - 01:33:53:14
Bram
So it's like they have to explain metabolism to a director or, you know, a producer who just doesn't care. Their eyes roll to the back of their head. But you have to explain why these things all look the same, because they're different display technologies or they measured the same. They might not appear to same time.

01:33:53:14 - 01:34:02:02
Joey
I won't build a room that has two monitors, the same eyeline. Even if I have to have monitors. I don't like to be have them visible at the same time for anyone.

01:34:02:05 - 01:34:12:09
Robbie
Or you could be like Robbie and just be so OCD level about it that you're calling Brom at 1:00 in the morning and be like, How do I get these four pixels to match? But that's a sidebar we'll go from.

01:34:12:13 - 01:34:32:19
Bram
But no, but the thing is like, so the and the fundamental problem with that is yes, you can perceptually match for the colorist. Then you have a client who walks in the room that sees a little different. Maybe they're 20 years older than you or younger than you, and you can be pretty much guaranteed that the match for you won't be the match for them in.

01:34:32:19 - 01:34:50:10
Joey
Those multi-monitor rooms. I personally and I know in the minority here, I don't believe in perceptual matching like I like I said, I would rather put them in such far away angles that you can't see them together. Right. And then, yeah, okay. If you put them together, maybe the wallet will look a little bit redder than the LCD.

01:34:50:10 - 01:35:07:07
Joey
Yeah, but I set up the room so we don't have to do that because again, it all comes back to You need to know that your image is right and you need to be able to stand behind that because you monitor it correctly. And that kind of Kentucky windage, the line them up is not going to work for everything.

01:35:07:11 - 01:35:17:08
Bram
No, but you have much tamer clients than most people than Joey, because the thing I always hear from colors is I set it up so they can't see both at the same time, but they stand up and they walk up behind.

01:35:17:10 - 01:35:19:03
Robbie
That's not happening.

01:35:19:05 - 01:35:20:04
Bram
And that happens, right?

01:35:20:04 - 01:35:24:21
Joey
And well, and that's the thing. There's no perfect answer until now.

01:35:24:23 - 01:35:42:21
Robbie
So I have a couple more technical things I want to discuss real quick. And the one the I have been back and forth the most, you, Brian, you and I have even talked about this a little bit. But for our listeners and the people watching, I want to just dive into this for a second because to me it's a real thing.

01:35:42:23 - 01:36:03:03
Robbie
But I'm starting to think that maybe it's a little bit of a placebo effect, and that is when I the first time I've sat in front of one of these KUDI panels and I said this to you last summer when we were not on Lana and I still feel this way every time I sit in front of it is that it is like a weird black hole of a monitor.

01:36:03:04 - 01:36:27:08
Robbie
And it's really hard to describe because it's not it's not black level per say. It's just that there seems to be like this. I'm going to borrow the quantum physics again. This physical force or aura surrounding these monitors where it just feels like a black hole. It's almost like 3-D to a point. And I think you told me that this is a reflectance issue.

01:36:27:08 - 01:36:45:23
Robbie
Can you just going to expand upon that just a little bit because it's something I've been trying to describe to people who have been asking about, should I get a cute little lab? Like, what's it like? And this is one of the things that I'm most struck by. And I think other people looking at these displays for the first time might be struggling to kind of not know what exactly it is that makes them feel that way.

01:36:46:01 - 01:37:32:10
Bram
Yeah, we get this. It feels like I'm being sucked into a black hole type of thing from a lot of people. But part of the reason for that is that these have what they call a really low specular include or a specular component included reflectance. So if you're sitting in front of this display for like a solar display, if you have any sort of stray light in the room, that's going to look more well defined and reflect back at you clearer, you will even see your own reflection as the color is more clearly on a wallet, whereas you get you get definitely a more muted reflectance off of the studio LEDs.

01:37:32:11 - 01:37:55:10
Bram
And the QTL is a really interesting in that they have this, they're glossy. If you look at them in a bright room, you can see that it's a glossy panel, but they feel a lot like matte and a lot of ways and that's the thing that really trips people up. The the kind of explanation behind that is that it has a lot to do with where kind of that oxide backplane in the panel stack sits.

01:37:55:10 - 01:38:19:07
Bram
So it actually doesn't sit at the back on a on a wall that sits higher up and makes it act like a little bit more like a mirror with the studio as it sits at the back. And the panel, in a sense, absorbs that stray light, which in a dark, grating room means that any little bit of stray light does get sort of sucked in, so to speak.

01:38:19:08 - 01:38:20:12
Robbie
So it is a black hole.

01:38:20:14 - 01:38:22:11
Bram
Yeah, it is kind of like.

01:38:22:13 - 01:38:36:15
Joey
If you have a W led and an LCD and a color, you live in the same room and you just shine a flashlight on them, right? Yeah. You will see visibly way less flashlight on the video. But even if all three displays are turned off.

01:38:36:17 - 01:38:53:09
Bram
You will see less. On the flip side, if you are using the much brighter environs, you'll see that the black level does get raised a little bit. Right, because it's kind of like absorbing that light. So that that's kind of the the flip side of that equation. And you'll hear people talk about it in a lot of different ways.

01:38:53:09 - 01:39:12:19
Bram
I think for a grating suite especially, it becomes this really great thing because it means you're a lot less likely to be distracted because people like to look of glossy. But there's no doubt that and people like to look at glossy in part because it kind of gets you this kind of higher mtf, right? It just things look sharper.

01:39:13:00 - 01:39:31:01
Bram
So you have all that sharpness, but you don't tend to get that same type of reflection of the colors is the biggest thing, You know, when you're grading a bright scene and there's a dark area on the screen on an W, and a lot of times you'll see your own reflection a little bit and on discussion you'll as you really don't it's a Yeah exactly it's a.

01:39:31:01 - 01:40:05:16
Joey
Great that's a great kind of I think segway into probably the last kind of technical thing that I think we should talk about because that low reflectance along all these other things we've talked about builds up to what I think the ideal that has above basically almost all other panel technology which is incredible good low to mid shadow detail right like coming out of black in the very darkest regions you see not only does it go all the way down to like perfect zero black, which is what everybody wanted, but those are JBL LEDs right over here.

01:40:05:16 - 01:40:12:21
Joey
Like, Wow, this image looks amazing because it's super contrasty, but they were kind of a brick wall on the lower end of the signal range. You get.

01:40:12:21 - 01:40:13:08
Bram
Some clipping.

01:40:13:09 - 01:40:31:06
Joey
Very radiation. And when I moved from an audible to an LCD, when I got the X and 310 k, I honestly even though yes, the black level of the LCD is a little bit higher, Robby will tell you I've said since day one with this thing that I feel like I was a better colorist because I could see deeper into the blacks and see color tense and details in the shadows.

01:40:31:08 - 01:40:43:10
Joey
I get that same feeling with acuity. let there is no stepping or noise or cut off of detail. Everything in the darkest darks has an incredible amount of detail still in it on these panels.

01:40:43:10 - 01:41:08:16
Robbie
And can I add to that and Brian has heard me whinge about this for four years, right? And that is I agree with you, Joey, on the foul displays and the slightly limited black level, especially in SDR, being able to kind of see Shadow Tense. And I experienced this all the time when I would grade something at home right on a w RG Be all that and feel happy with it, bring it to the to the studio to do a supervised review.

01:41:08:18 - 01:41:23:08
Robbie
And then I'd be like, I'm noticing the shadow tense or it just didn't translate as well as I would. And so I went through this rigmarole where like, okay, I was going to, you know, lift the brightness on the WG to be all that a little bit. I was going to take a little bit out of bit.

01:41:23:08 - 01:41:44:16
Robbie
I was going to do all this perceptual B.S. to try to get a grade to translate from working out at home. I work a lot going to the studio, and it was just I mean, I love the X 310 K, but that workflow for me was just always problematic. I could never, ever get it to be perfect. So fast forward a little bit.

01:41:44:16 - 01:42:10:22
Robbie
I get the S&P 550 at home simultaneously with some some, you know, improvements that Prime in the development team have been making, the software and stuff like that. I'm at this point now where I can I have 100% confidence in doing a grade on the studio let at home, bringing that out to the studio where we still have the XM 310 K and getting a spot on flawless translation from one to the other.

01:42:10:23 - 01:42:39:08
Robbie
Right? And yeah, I mean I think if I had them side by side there's still probably be a few little kind of minor perceptual things. But that big like this feels wrong thing has completely disappeared to me. For me using Kudo and going back to a foul display and back and forth and I know I don't know why I should say I don't know what that is, but it is really like anybody who's on the fence about this, like that translate ability to other displays.

01:42:39:10 - 01:42:56:10
Robbie
Even when I see it, when I factor in iPads, iPhones, know laptops like that. I honestly feel that with a year old, I'm getting the best translation ability, if that's actually a word that I've ever gotten on any other display technology before.

01:42:56:14 - 01:43:20:08
Bram
Yeah, I think that's an important point to actually is that the the way the speed of the distribution of this display kind of outputs, you also get something that does having to use an alternate white point, which we haven't talked about people often do on W OLEDs or on especially RGV OLEDs. It just tends to translate better to all these other technologies.

01:43:20:08 - 01:43:41:00
Bram
And if you look at like the speed of a quad-led for the older chargeable LED panels and something like a DM 250, they are different and they're different in a way that avoids having to do that. And you don't tend to have, aside from low light details and those types of things, you also don't have this kind of white point kind of feel that's different.

01:43:41:00 - 01:43:57:06
Bram
You know, you can just use straight D 65 and things just translate well, but I agree. That's one thing I love. It's like I look at something on a studio and then I look at all my on my iPad or my netbook or whatever, and all these displays using like especially like first phosphor backlights and things like that.

01:43:57:08 - 01:44:03:00
Bram
It all translates really well to those technologies, more so than the older old technologies did.

01:44:03:04 - 01:44:25:00
Robbie
It was to the point where I was grading skin tone specifically to feel a little wrong to me, right? Yeah, I would look at it. RG B And I'd make them I maybe a little yellower than I think that they actually should be for that translate ability. But now I'm having the experience of I just grade it the way I feel like it should work and it's working everywhere.

01:44:25:02 - 01:45:00:15
Robbie
I have one last thing I want to ask you specifically about it or discuss. It's simply about HDR, right? I feel in this jump to HDR over the past decade we've all obviously as we discussed, volumetric collapse. That's one compromise. There has been a lot of compromises in getting to kind of a good HDR display, right? And power displays in particular have gotten a bad rap over the years for some of the problems they have with loading behavior or blooming, you know, the starfield being the classic example of what you want to see your display to go crazy.

01:45:00:17 - 01:45:19:20
Robbie
But you know that loading behavior on like, you know, you know some of the early RGV type of additional LEDs going in every time you put something bright on it, you get the overload button going, you know, going crazy over the shooting schedule. That adds up to 2000 nits. Right now, the smaller ones doing up to a thousand nits.

01:45:19:22 - 01:45:36:19
Robbie
Can you just kind of can you just tell us a little bit about kind of the for those who are people who are doing a lot of HDR work besides some of those limitations, what does that roadmap look like moving forward? Are we going to continue to get brighter, do you think? Kind of things are kind of bounced out right now?

01:45:36:19 - 01:45:44:10
Robbie
We're in a good because you know, most content, so somewhere between 1000 nits and 2000 nits, what do you think that that kind of looks like for the future?

01:45:44:12 - 01:46:14:04
Bram
Yeah. So I think currently the displays kind of hit the benchmarks that you would want to hit for the vast majority of deliverables, right? So especially the bigger ones, 55 and 65, a 2000 nits, they all emissive displays still are going to have some degree of appeal right? So you're not going to do 2000 nits full screen, but on something like a on a S&P 550, you can still do like an L 50.

01:46:14:04 - 01:46:40:15
Bram
So linear 50% diagonal size patch size, you can still do 650 nits, which is really bright. And the good thing about Kudo is that while it's already hitting these benchmarks, I think are great for a lot of today's workflows, this is not a stagnant technology. It will continue to evolve and I think that's why there's a lot of kind of hope and investment.

01:46:40:15 - 01:47:09:15
Bram
And long term, you know, just excitement about this technology. Yes, you might start getting more requests for 4000 or 5000 deliverables one day, but once those things become more of a reality, you're going to start seeing Quantum dot OLEDs get there. So they started around 1000 nits, then they went up to 2000 CC The panel supplier for these is already showing 3000 prototypes, so things are going in the right direction.

01:47:09:15 - 01:47:30:18
Bram
Now as you get smaller, heat dissipation becomes more of an issue, right? So you get the same number of pixels and much smaller space. So yes, the small one only does 1000 nits. For most people, that's more than good enough because the reality is that we go to most Hollywood, most houses. They're like, Look, we can barely get our colorist to do over 200, right?

01:47:30:23 - 01:47:33:10
Bram
So it's a it's a.

01:47:33:15 - 01:47:37:10
Joey
But also, again, for the first time, the smaller one is actually lower price point as well.

01:47:37:13 - 01:47:54:20
Bram
Though that's that's the huge thing too, right. So it's like, hey, I have to do a thousand nit deliverable and my apples are going to be reasonable. What am I going to buy? And I'm going to buy a $30,000 monitor. I'm going to buy a $10,000 monitor. And so the $10,000 monitor is going to get the job done for the vast majority of people.

01:47:54:20 - 01:48:33:14
Bram
Now, if you're Pixar and you're doing a 4000 nit master, yeah, you're going to need that super special $40,000 display. There are people who need that stuff. We're not denying that. Why aren't we focusing on 4000 displays using other technologies right now? Because again, we think by the time there's actually mass momentum in our industry and a desire for actual 4000 or more deliverables, quantum dot alert or some successor to it, and like maybe I'll cut in the long term future, we'll get to those types of light output levels without any of the other drawbacks you have of these things.

01:48:33:14 - 01:49:02:21
Bram
I mean, the benchmark we always use to make it less less esoteric is that a lot of stuff was graded on a brand ess monitor that it was 8000 and HDR display and did about 600 nits. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it spells out the last 6000 nits and those did about 200 nits full screen. So both of our monitors of the 31 to 55 and actually I sell three of them in 65 or the 250 that's full screen.

01:49:02:21 - 01:49:22:10
Bram
So it's already brighter than that. Right. So yes, there is. Bell But how meaningful is it for you if you're working on cartoons where you're artificially pushing stuff up? Sure. If you're working on stuff with reasonable appeals, you know, you're not really, you know, most of the areas, 203 hundred nits and then you have some specular highlights, go to 1000 or more.

01:49:22:12 - 01:49:36:09
Bram
This is going to be more than good enough for for those people. And if a bell is a concern, get the big ones. That's my advice because the big ones as a28 monitor for their grades. They basically have almost no appeal that's going to impact you. So.

01:49:36:11 - 01:50:09:07
Robbie
Yeah, and I think, you know, the other thing the last thing I'll say about this in this discussion is that, you know, I think that everybody, you know, because obviously the utilities also are gaining speed in the consumer landscape as well. There are companies who are making, you know, computer monitors, home TVs, whatever. You know, one thing that I will say that I just think that, you know, because there's the obvious stuff, you know, 12 GSD II, you know, the switchable color space and gamuts and, you know, on stream scopes, all the, all the wonderful stuff that you guys do on your monitors to support the professional user.

01:50:09:09 - 01:50:34:04
Robbie
But when I have this discussion with people, they're like, well, maybe I'll just buy a consumer version of this, right? One of the things that I, I'm just head over heels for on these monitors and something honestly, have you been do you guys have in the past couple of years what makes a huge difference is auto CAO right and I just I wish that I could scream it for more mountaintops about how awesome auto car is.

01:50:34:04 - 01:50:49:17
Robbie
Right. And for those of you don't know, auto cowl gives you the ability with a monitor to plug in a compatible probe via USB to the USB side of the monitor, bring up the auto cowl routine. You just kind of light up on a cross hairs in the center of the monitor and hit go In about 20, 25 minutes.

01:50:49:17 - 01:51:15:08
Robbie
You have all of your ETFs and all of your gamuts in an SDR and HDR calibrated for that display. And it's fast enough. It's like one of those things, like if you had a giant or a huge, you know, review session coming up and you just want to get that monitor, make sure it's 100% spot on like the meter and go and I'm not trying to discount all the wonderful you know, the software out there, you know, calibration software tools and all that kind of stuff.

01:51:15:10 - 01:51:46:14
Robbie
But as a non full time calibrator and somebody who bothers Brum incessantly about calibration software in general, this has literally been manna from heaven for me right? That it's just sort of like plugging in the monitor hit go. And so for those of you who are considering career jumped video lead and maybe debating consumer versions versus, you know, professional versions like FSI offers, I am not going to pull punches here.

01:51:46:16 - 01:51:52:05
Robbie
Okay. It's not it's the sole reason, the sole reason that you should consider this because.

01:51:52:05 - 01:52:09:14
Joey
And doing the work for me and I do where we have home offices with two different types of monitors and a viewing suite for clients with another different type of monitor, all of them using auto call to calibrate. We can go to any of these rooms, open up the project and spot exactly how we expect it to.

01:52:09:14 - 01:52:16:12
Robbie
So that's that's a topic for a full on topic for another discussion another day with you, Bryan. But I just want to just point that out to people that.

01:52:16:12 - 01:52:38:06
Bram
No, I appreciate it. I mean, yeah, I mean, it was important for us and I'm glad you brought that up because this the thing that we've been mentioning more and more people don't get me wrong, I our displays, if you prefer to use Calman or color source, are fully compatible with those. I'm huge fans of of those programs and they do give excellent results.

01:52:38:07 - 01:52:49:18
Bram
The problem is they get excellent results and they work really well because I live in those applications a lot. Our team does. We use them day in and day out. You see reports to build lots for older monitors. We understand how they work.

01:52:49:21 - 01:52:59:09
Robbie
If it's not something that you're doing every single day and you know, every update, you know, they switch the behavior of this button or whatever it can be mind numbing.

01:52:59:11 - 01:53:25:09
Joey
And honestly, I think that Auto Cal has going for it specifically in the FSI ecosystem that should not be discounted, is that it can make a cheap colorimeter much better than it normally would be, because usually when you do a full calibration right, you use a spectroradiometer to make offsets for your particular panel technology to then load into your colorimeter to ground your calibration in actual physical reality.

01:53:25:12 - 01:53:40:14
Joey
Right? Your calibration will only ever be as good as those offsets in your colorimeter. And one of the things that ABC does is they will sell you that they like what are the the lower level color monitors that you guys sell that you can pre-load with?

01:53:40:16 - 01:54:05:03
Bram
So we had the time that 1d3ds, the cr1 hundred four for XP, the brighter ones we recommend zero and we are working on iron d3d. S compatibility for at least the 310 we might do for the bigger models. We're still testing that. But you're right, we load in those matrices and that that helps a lot to give you, you know, an inexpensive probe that matches, you know, a $20,000 reference spectra.

01:54:05:05 - 01:54:29:14
Bram
And that is a huge part of it as well. Joe You're absolutely right. But for us, it was it was just this logical thing. We're like, people are making mistakes. And Robbie, that's the scary thing. Honestly, for us as a display manufacturer is that as much as you contacted me with questions, you were probably one of like the 10% most competent of people trying to calibrate at home.

01:54:29:16 - 01:54:47:19
Bram
And and that was the scary part is like, man, Robbie, who is explaining this to other people and does know this stuff is call me with this many questions like how is everybody else doing this? And so that was fundamentally thing like if you're a professional calibrator and you use color sensor Calman, you get great more power to you.

01:54:47:19 - 01:55:11:07
Bram
You can still use that with our system if you want. But for the average, average everyday user, these displays are linear enough. We have spent over two years developing this for S and P serious where you can just plug it in and it does it. And again it calibrates for everything. That's the other important thing, right? Is like you could spend all this time getting a perfect P3 pcu, the full range calibration, and then you got to do it again every second like, are you going to do 2020?

01:55:11:07 - 01:55:13:21
Bram
And you're like, crap, I got to pull out my computer again.

01:55:14:01 - 01:55:15:03
Robbie
I know Manmeet is.

01:55:15:03 - 01:55:36:20
Bram
Making a selection and it just works. And so that's a huge part of it is just the simplicity. Like I will even say, like if you were to spend 3 hours calibrating with color space for a particular target, you might even get slightly a lower delta E values. I'm not even denying that. But the thing is, are you going to get it right?

01:55:36:22 - 01:55:57:06
Bram
And with the auto call system, it's going to do a good job. Ravi, you said that your D figures, they look pretty impressive. So we do a pretty job, we think. But the main thing is you're just you're not going to get it wrong. And that that's the thing that I think is really important is that it is we've tried to make it as user friendly as possible.

01:55:57:07 - 01:56:06:13
Bram
You no longer have to be an expert and you also have to pay for the calibration software. You don't have to pay for licenses over time. So there are upsides to it from a cost perspective as well.

01:56:06:14 - 01:56:32:02
Robbie
Excellent. Well Bram, we can't thank you enough for joining us on this episode and share your thoughts on QD OLED. It is exciting times. I share your enthusiasm. I haven't been this jazzed and this, shall I say, calm about my reference viewing in a long, long time. And that's that's your credit, your entire team, the engineering staff, everybody for for doing some great work on this.

01:56:32:04 - 01:57:00:16
Robbie
Just so everybody knows you're going to head over to blender scientific dot com to read more information about these panels. They also have a great YouTube channel. If you want to learn more about metabolism and all these other technical things that we might have been talking about, get a demo of how auto core works, etc. And then when you are ready to purchase and, just so everybody knows the old line, now the XP line is available a 31 to 55 and a 65.

01:57:00:16 - 01:57:21:03
Robbie
So lots of different sizes to meet your needs. All 12 SDI all with auto cal and the great features the industry has come to love about about monitors. Thank you so much for joining us and really really elucidating on a lot of a lot of stuff about video live. So for the Offset podcast, I'm Robbie Carman.

01:57:21:05 - 01:57:22:19
Joey
And I'm Joey D’Anna.. Thanks for watching.


Robbie Carman
Robbie Carman

Robbie is the managing colorist and CEO of DC Color. A guitar aficionado who’s never met a piece of gear he didn’t like.

Joey D'Anna
Joey D'Anna

Joey is lead colorist and CTO of DC Color. When he’s not in the color suite you’ll usually find him with a wrench in hand working on one of his classic cars or bikes


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