EP025: Things They Don’t Tell You About Becoming A Colorist

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:22
Robbie
Hey there! In this installment of The Offset Podcast, we're going to talk about all the things they don't tell you about becoming a professional colorist. Stay tuned.

00:00:15:00 - 00:00:33:00
Joey
This podcast is sponsored by Flanders Scientific leaders in color accurate display solutions for professional video. Whether you're a colorist, an editor, a DIT, or a broadcast engineer, Flanders Scientific has a professional display solution to meet your needs. Learn more at Flanders scientific.com.

00:00:33:02 - 00:00:40:00
Robbie
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Offset Podcast. I am Robbie Carman.

00:00:40:02 - 00:00:42:02
Joey
And I'm Joey D’Anna

00:00:42:04 - 00:01:03:03
Robbie
Joey, today, we're going to talk about mansions, Ferraris and wads of cash because obviously that is why we got into the color correction business, because, all of the glory, the spoils, the riches are us, ours to be had as professional colors. Isn't that correct?

00:01:03:05 - 00:01:03:21
Joey
Yeah, that's.

00:01:03:21 - 00:01:19:18
Robbie
Yeah, that's that's what I want to know. And not in all seriousness, though. We wanted to do an episode about kind of, I want to, I don't know, I hesitate to call it the dark side of color correction or the dark side of post-production.

00:01:19:20 - 00:01:20:03
Joey
Yeah.

00:01:20:03 - 00:01:45:07
Robbie
The pitfalls. I mean, I think that, you know, over the years, the, the stressors, the, the, both physical and mental exertion of people in production, as is really widely known. I mean, these people work incredibly hard in a physically and mentally hard, super long hours. I think a lot has been documented about, editors and the boss that a lot of editors have to put up with.

00:01:45:08 - 00:02:14:22
Robbie
And clearly, you know, the VFX market has been talked about a lot in this regard because it's like it's hard to find consistent work and companies going out of business, Hong Kong stuff. And during that whole time, I think our end of post-production, our little, our little five term of color correction and sitting in dark rooms has kind of been seen as this like, you know, man, this is like, this is the this is the pros, this is the this is the the A-list, these these people sit in these rooms.

00:02:15:03 - 00:02:36:08
Robbie
They make a lot of money. Everything is just roses all the time. And, you know, for those of you who are just getting started in color correction, there might have been a time it was like that. It might have been a time where everybody was getting paid $1 million and, you know, driving Ferraris around. But there are some dark sides or some some lesser good sides of that.

00:02:36:10 - 00:02:52:05
Robbie
And so we want to kind of cover that, stuff a little bit today, of course, and tell you about the things that really nobody ever told you about being a colorist. And of course, if you guys have things, some things to add to the list or some things that come to mind as you listen to this, feel free to leave comments if you're watching this on YouTube.

00:02:52:07 - 00:03:12:11
Robbie
You can also comment if you follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Of course, you can always head over to offsetpodcast.com. And you can leave, some comments there as well as, by the way, submit, some ideas from some new episodes. We're going to try to focus in 2025, on getting some more user submitted, episode ideas in the Q as well.

00:03:12:11 - 00:03:38:00
Robbie
So, you can head over there. So, Joey, I think I want to start this episode by something that has, kind of popped into my world over the past year or two about being a colorist, and it's something I've had to work on really hard. And that is the idea that being a colorist is not great for your physical health, especially.

00:03:38:00 - 00:03:54:21
Robbie
Right? But also some mental health stuff too. Just as a reminder, Joey and I did an episode on mental health, that was well received. I think probably the middle or, you know, spring of last year, sometime around then. If you haven't checked out that episode, please go check it out a lot. A lot of good stuff in there.

00:03:54:21 - 00:04:29:16
Robbie
But, you know, one of the things that nobody tells you about being a colorist is that, hey, it's going to mean oftentimes 14, 15, 16 hour days sitting in a chair, sitting down the entire time in a dark room, not getting sunlight, avoiding your family and all that kind of stuff. And literally, I think every colors that I know, one of the things that we always talk about is like, hey man, I like you, start a new workout routine or you start a new diet because it's easy to kind of let yourself go as a colorist because we spent so much time just eating exited and pushing buttons.

00:04:29:16 - 00:04:31:11
Robbie
Would you agree with that?

00:04:31:13 - 00:04:52:09
Joey
Yeah. And, you know, unlike a lot of jobs, even in the industry, with what we do, you know, unless you have an army of assistants, and even if you do have an army of assistants, you're still going to be supervising their work as well at the end of the day. We we're confronted with a show that has maybe 1500 shots in it.

00:04:52:12 - 00:05:19:07
Joey
We're going to need to go through every shot in detail. It all needs to get done. There's no like I'm going to sail through everything. Some are harder, some are easier. But at the end of the day, we've got to get through every shot of every show and there's just no replacement for the time in doing so. There's no there's no easy shortcut.

00:05:19:09 - 00:05:41:01
Joey
There's no way around it. You need to actually get the work done. And I'm not saying that other disciplines and other things don't have that same issue. But like if we were building widgets, we could bring ten more people on to do different steps of the widget building process. That's harder for grading an hour long documentary.

00:05:41:02 - 00:06:03:02
Robbie
Yeah. And I think unlike unlike editorial, where it's a lot of segmental build up to the final product, we often don't get that opportunity to be like, okay, here's just the first five minutes or the next, you know, the next. It's like, no, we want to look at the whole thing in its entirety. Done. And so we don't have the ability to kind of iterate like, oh, okay.

00:06:03:02 - 00:06:21:08
Robbie
Well, I thought we were working on making changes based on the first five minutes comments like, no, we got to get it all done before anybody even looks at it, which just necessitates a boatload of time spent doing that. And we did an episode on kind of avoiding burnout. So there's some specific tips, kind of in that episode, that kind of are germane to this.

00:06:21:08 - 00:06:36:05
Robbie
But I think that's one thing that I think the young colorist might look at this go, oh, this is so much fun of making image improvements. And that's true. You are making image improvements and making things better. But the time suck, can be can be really big there too.

00:06:36:07 - 00:06:45:02
Joey
It can be real fun for the first 100 shots. And then there's 900 more. And you can't have only the first 100 shots. Look good and be consistent.

00:06:45:03 - 00:07:18:12
Robbie
Yeah. And I think another another one that I would add to the pile here before, before moving on to some other things is I think related to health is just some family stuff or whatever that I'll riff on in a second. But it just reminded me of another thing that I think, is really unknown to a lot of aspiring colorists, and that is, you know, it's really easy to go on Instagram and other social media platforms and look at professional colorists work and go, holy crap, everything they touch is golden.

00:07:18:14 - 00:07:40:01
Robbie
Everything is beautiful. It's perfectly polished. It's I mean, you know, it is easy to create this, like level of, like envy and like, you know, keeping up with the Joneses feelings. Right? What nobody ever told me before becoming a colorist is that 10% of your work is that stuff that you want to show off to people and be really proud of it?

00:07:40:03 - 00:08:04:09
Robbie
90% of it is stuff that varying degrees of. I wish nobody knew I was associated with this project kind of thing, you know? No, and I just I mean, it's not that bad, but I'm just saying, like, not everything is gold and, you know, and there's one of those things where I think it's really easy when you get into the world of color, just to think that everything is going to be about creating beautiful images.

00:08:04:09 - 00:08:26:11
Robbie
And sometimes it is, but oftentimes more, more times than not, the job is about getting something that's acceptable rather than beautiful. And that can be a little bit if you're if you're the type of artist that is really, you know, keen on just making everything the best it can, sometimes it's out of your control. And I wish somebody had sort of early on in my career said, told me sort of like that.

00:08:26:11 - 00:08:44:08
Robbie
But like I think that could have I could have put a lot of my frustration, my OCD aside, because I've in my later years, I've learned that not everything is art, but especially getting into color correction. I wish that somebody had said, hey, not everything is art. Sometimes you got to just make it acceptable and move on.

00:08:44:10 - 00:08:47:23
Joey
It's even better than good. It's approved.

00:08:48:01 - 00:08:58:13
Robbie
Right? Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, that's one thing. I think that a lot of people like this, like everything's going to be perfect. And that doesn't that doesn't exist, all the time.

00:08:58:19 - 00:09:15:03
Joey
So and chasing that is, is a losing proposition, right? You need to be chasing happy clients and return business and doing the best work you can, but getting yourself into, into a feedback loop of this is never good enough, is never going to help.

00:09:15:05 - 00:09:54:07
Robbie
Yeah, I agree, I 100% agree with that. So the other one that I think, and I talked to a lot of people about this, but it's, I don't know, everybody's situation is going to be slightly different, but like, combined with the time that you're spending bad for your own physical and potentially mental health, one of the things that I've been really impacted over the years is just those long stretches away from family, friends, special events, things of that nature, because the anxiety has built up so much that I feel like if I was to walk away, to go do these things that I probably should be doing, but the angst builds

00:09:54:07 - 00:10:13:22
Robbie
up, the anxiety builds up, the worry builds up, and it makes everything for me just worse. And I. I can't tell you, you know, now my kids are basically teenagers. And so we have like a different dynamic. But like I look back on it when my kids were, you know, two, three, 4 or 5 and my wife tells stories about like, oh, we were at this thing or at that thing.

00:10:13:22 - 00:10:41:10
Robbie
And I'm like, what are you talking about? And inevitably it's like, oh, you might not have been there. You might have been at the office working. Right. And that's, part of the job to a certain degree. But that's also something that, you know, 25 years ago, jumping into this, I think I would have taken a slightly different tack on how I manage my life and my business, because the reality of it is I have spent a tremendous amount of time away from my family and friends.

00:10:41:16 - 00:11:08:04
Robbie
I've not gone on trips, I've not gone to, you know, various things, games, etc. and like, it's easy to make excuses for those things. But now looking back on it, it's like, man, was that crappy cable television show really worth, you know, missing, you know, X, Y or Z. And I, you know, I, I'm, I'm mixed on that, you know, and it's one of those things that I think going into it and I try to now, but I would have done better at the time.

00:11:08:04 - 00:11:18:01
Robbie
It's easy to say, you know, hindsight's 2020, but like, it's something to be aware of managing the family expectations, friend expectations can be difficult.

00:11:18:03 - 00:11:44:14
Joey
Yeah. And a big part of that is kind of how you approach your career as a colorist, right. If you're independent, you know, kind of working for yourselves, like, like we are, you know, you know, there's a lot more of that problem because you are not necessarily scheduled by a facility with, you know, set hours and set, things like holidays and vacations and stuff like that.

00:11:44:16 - 00:12:11:01
Joey
If that's the kind of thing that will really, really bother you. Maybe working for a facility and not as an independent colorist is the the approach to take. But, you know, we've talked about this a lot. It's the aspect of working for a facility in the current ecosystem has changed drastically since I think either you or I have worked in a I mean.

00:12:11:03 - 00:12:25:20
Robbie
Let's put it this way. I mean, like I wish somebody had 25 years ago told me that, you know, because here's here's what I mean. Here's why I started my own company 25 years ago because I was a hot shot who thought he knew it all. And I didn't want to be the low person on the totem pole.

00:12:25:20 - 00:12:41:22
Robbie
So I was like, well, screw it, I'm going to go do my own, my own thing. In hindsight, that journey has been hard. I mean, that, you know, there's, you know, where it's like I talk to people who have I'm using air quotes here, regular jobs. Right. And they're like, whoa, payroll on the first and 15th of the month and, you know, benefits.

00:12:41:22 - 00:13:13:00
Robbie
And then I'm like, well, it's been seven weeks since I last paid myself. And, well, I get my benefits through my wife. And, you know, I'll, you know, whatever. Like running your own thing brings on its own level of anxiety or whatever. But to your point, I think the, the the flip side of that has always been, well, I can always go get a job at a facility or network or whatever, but it's harder than ever to have that off ramp, to get to for people who are currently independent.

00:13:13:05 - 00:13:44:14
Robbie
But it's even harder to get that from scratch. Like you're new out of college. Want to go work for a big post facility? Good luck. The days of the huge post facility hiring assistants out the wazoo is is really, really faded. So it's you know, I think if you're, you know, interested in color correction in this game, just be aware it's harder than ever, probably at any point in my career to go work for somebody else in a capacity of like a salaried position.

00:13:44:16 - 00:14:08:21
Joey
Yeah. And we've talked about that in the past a little bit too, where the result of that is that kind of the normal or normal to us process of coming up in the business and mentorship and learning has, you know, I feel really gone downhill in our industry over the past maybe ten years. And I don't know the answer to how to fix that.

00:14:08:23 - 00:14:28:23
Joey
And that's just kind of something to not to be too good. I don't want this whole episode to be doom and gloom. So I it off with a little bit of a grain of salt, but that is a real crucial thing to the the younger creatives coming up in this business who want to be a full time colorist is where do you go to learn?

00:14:29:01 - 00:14:48:13
Joey
You know, you can't just jump out of college or even, you know, a different career path, maybe. And I'm going to start my own color shop, right? The hardware is easy to get nowadays. The software is easy to get nowadays. But you know, if you don't know the business and you don't have connections, you don't have a previous work experience that's never going to work.

00:14:48:19 - 00:14:55:02
Joey
So where do you get that working for a facility? And like you said, that's really hard these days.

00:14:55:04 - 00:15:10:11
Robbie
Yeah. And I think I, I, I, I agree with you. We don't make this all doom and gloom, but I'll add one more doom and gloom thing and then put a positive spin on it is that, you know, I think for a lot of people, they're going to find going to work for a facility or a network or whatever to be challenging and difficult to do.

00:15:10:13 - 00:15:28:13
Robbie
And running your own business is hard. I mean, there's no way about that. A lot of us, a lot of us creative types aren't prepared for the stuff that goes on with running your own business, like in the past year, like I had to go through like it was easy. It was kind of asked to be honest with you, but like, I had to go through an audit, right?

00:15:28:16 - 00:15:52:01
Robbie
First time in 25 years at Google. And, you know, Joey, I was like, I mean, like a ball of anxiety compressed into a black hole. I was so anxious about this. Yeah. And it's just like stuff like that or like reporting, you know, payroll stuff or whatever. Like there's this whole other aspect, not to mention sales, marketing. Benefits, you know, eventually dealing with employees or contractors and all kind of stuff.

00:15:52:03 - 00:16:10:16
Robbie
It's a whole lot of extra energy. But I will put a positive spin on that. Right. So it's it's harder than ever to get a full time job as a colorist or in post-production. It's not that hard to start your own company, but doing so has problems. But I will say I wouldn't trade it for the world. And three and three reasons.

00:16:10:17 - 00:16:42:22
Robbie
Number one, success or failure is on my shoulders and I prefer it that way. I definitely like that feeling of my efforts and what I do have tangible results to how much money is in my pocket to success, etc., right? I'm sure you feel the same way too. The other part about this is that that flexibility of doing your own thing, I wish somebody 25 years ago had explained this to me in a way that didn't make it sound like.

00:16:42:22 - 00:16:57:10
Robbie
The first part of what I said didn't make it seem like it was hard, but made it seem like this is a good thing. Because guess what? If I want to take 3 or 4 days off, I most of the time, if I take 3 or 4 days off and not do anything and play video games and, you know, whatever, totally.

00:16:57:11 - 00:17:25:09
Robbie
I can totally do that or take a vacation or even I'm more in the more mundane. It allows me to do things like, oh, well, my wife's at work, but the kids need to be picked up at 3:00. Well, guess what? I'm I'm around at 3:00. I can go pick them up. And so it does offer a little bit of a quality of life thing, if you can manage it in a way that gives you a lot of flexibility that you might not have working for a company or a facility or a network or whatever.

00:17:25:11 - 00:17:38:12
Robbie
Because, you know, it's a lot harder to go to your boss and go, hey, I know it's to, you know, 2:00 on a Tuesday, but I need to take off the rest of the day because my, my, my, my daughter's home sick or something like that. You know, that's much more difficult to do.

00:17:38:14 - 00:18:07:13
Joey
Yeah. And on the flip side of that to and I guess some optimism to this, right. Like we said, it is harder to get a job in a traditional post facility. But the other side of that coin is that more and I hate the word, but I'm going to say it more content is being made than ever before, and there's a race for that stuff to get better and better and better.

00:18:07:13 - 00:18:34:11
Joey
And, you know, companies, nonprofits, groups, organizations, stuff that you would not normally associate with media production are getting more and more in the media production and doing it more and more. Them selves. So the answer for I think some of the more junior artists coming up might be to look in places you might not expect. Look for companies that have a media department or a marketing department that produce their own videos in-house.

00:18:34:11 - 00:18:56:00
Joey
That could be a good way to start. And I know a lot of I know a lot of really experienced editors, colorists, finishing artists who have actually moved into corporate positions at various companies at various levels and have been, you know, there's always kind of like an attitude I think people have about, oh, you went to work. And for a company that's not real TV, you know?

00:18:56:02 - 00:19:20:06
Joey
But at the end of the day, a lot of the content again, I hate that word. But the content production happening is better than some of the TV production happening these days. And that's where a lot of the movement is happening in terms of people's careers. So all I'll say is do not wall yourself off if you're trying to find a position somewhere to only their traditional post-production roots.

00:19:20:11 - 00:19:40:23
Robbie
I can't agree more. And we discussed we discussed this particular thing with a lot of colleagues who are lamenting, you know, here we are right now, we're recording this in January of 2025, the, you know, the post-production and media entertainment industry has really struggled the past couple of years, and it doesn't look like it's getting any better.

00:19:41:05 - 00:19:59:12
Robbie
And I've been talking about that very thing that you mentioned a lot, right. That like, there is a lot of work out there. It just might not be in making a narrative feature film or making a doc or making a TV show. It's a lot of this other content, like for example, this morning before we even started recording, I just happened to click on something.

00:19:59:13 - 00:20:08:11
Robbie
I think it was produced by Red bull, Red Bull Studios. Right. It was like, it was like a mountain biking video. And I was like, Holy crap, this is high. And it was.

00:20:08:11 - 00:20:11:01
Joey
I'd love to work on Red bull stuff. Awesome stuff.

00:20:11:01 - 00:20:30:11
Robbie
It was like in HDR on YouTube, like, and looked at and, you know, like gyros and helicopters, like the whole nine yards. I mean, like really high in production. It's never going to see a network per se. It's never going to it never going to be on, you know, like whatever. It's like this for the web and it's really so high and stuff.

00:20:30:11 - 00:20:51:20
Robbie
And I feel that same way about a lot of corporate stuff that with the advent of social media and creating the the C word, as you mentioned, content, right? There is a lot, a lot of that effort. The other thing I think about in a lot of times in regards to this part of the conversation is that and I'm not I'm not trying to blow bloviating and say, we're smarter than a lot of other people out there, because that's certainly not true.

00:20:51:22 - 00:21:15:18
Robbie
But I do think of the colorist, the men and women who are colorist. And at that part of the post-production pipeline, I do like to often think about them as like the special forces of post-production. Right? The Navy Seals, the Green Beret type level kind of person. Right? Where you get to doing the coloring job, mainly because you've come up through the other parts of the ranks, the infantry or whatever.

00:21:15:22 - 00:21:48:18
Robbie
And now you're doing this very specified, highly tuned, highly trained, particular part of the post-production, pyramid. And what I think that ends up meaning is that a lot of people who call themselves colors actually have a full plethora of institutional post-production knowledge that other people, you know, in other parts of the pyramid might not necessarily have. And what that can often mean is that that you can parlay much easier into other parts of the industry than you could going the other way.

00:21:48:18 - 00:22:12:16
Robbie
Right? So like, it's not it's not a far stretch by any means to say, hey, Joey, you know what? You could be a kick ass post supervisor, because guess what? You know, visual effects, audio, color, whatever. You know, hardware or workflows, whatever. And the same thing, you know, same thing goes like with me, like, I, I wouldn't call myself an audio mixer by any means, but like, I know a lot about audio, I know a lot about recording.

00:22:12:16 - 00:22:37:13
Robbie
I know a lot about Foley. I know a lot about like, so I there's ways of us, I think at this the tip of the spear, if you will, to parlay ourselves. And I just wish that like, you know, I, I wish that one of the things I'd been told 25 years ago is that you don't necessarily like you will benefit by being a little bit more wider in your approach than necessarily being totally, totally, pinpointed, sir.

00:22:37:18 - 00:22:52:20
Robbie
But the flip side of that, too, is that, you know, like, you don't want to be everything. I think a lot of, you know, a lot of, young folks will be like, well, I'm going to be an editor or colorist, DP, a director, a producer. Like now, at some point in time, focus on the things that you really love and you're really good at.

00:22:52:22 - 00:22:56:06
Robbie
But having that that knowledge is, is definitely helpful.

00:22:56:08 - 00:23:33:09
Joey
Yeah. And, you know, on that subject of kind of some of the more nontraditional roles that are available today that weren't available, kind of when we got started. You know, one thing that I think everybody in the finishing business and the color business needs to really kind of understand, because it can get frustrating and you kind of got to be ready for it, especially if you're going to move into things like corporate or internal advertising agencies or something like that, is that we don't do this for the glory and the accolades and everything else, you know?

00:23:33:10 - 00:23:57:06
Joey
Oh, wow. So and so did the most amazing grade on that show. No, no, no, our credit is at the very, very bottom. And most of the people in the production process don't admit we exist. And I don't mean that in a bad way, because, you know, it's important in the role of a colorist to kind of check your ego at the door a little bit in that, you know, we're kind of standing on the shoulders of the entire production before us.

00:23:57:08 - 00:24:25:16
Joey
If we act like we did everything, we're kind of crapping on the DP, the wardrobe people, the production design people, and we shouldn't be because our work, the quality of our final work, is completely dependent on the quality of the work, all of the work before us. Right? So we don't get the glory, and we shouldn't go after the glory and the accolades because it's not just us.

00:24:25:18 - 00:24:31:20
Joey
We're doing the final steps. There's a lot that happens before us. I think sometimes people forget about that.

00:24:32:00 - 00:24:51:11
Robbie
Yeah, I can't agree more. I mean, I think of this often as like into to use a sports analogy, I often think about this as like the role of the colorist is more like an assistant coach than it is a head coach. Right. And like, you know, in our line of work, the, the DOP, the producer, the director, it might be more akin to the head coach.

00:24:51:11 - 00:25:10:19
Robbie
And we're kind of playing a role, playing a supporting role. And if we do our jobs good, that means more glory and honor for the the head coach, you know, or the people playing that role. But that's kind of fine. It's just interesting to me that there is there is actually a lot of ego involved in the world of color, but it's actually kind of like intra world of color.

00:25:10:19 - 00:25:11:15
Robbie
Right? It's a between.

00:25:11:18 - 00:25:13:01
Joey
Yeah. And keep it there.

00:25:13:01 - 00:25:35:08
Robbie
Right between other colors like I'm hot shit, you know, in your whatever. You know, you don't you're not going to get the score. I mean, there's been a lot of effort in the past couple of years, by various bodies and groups and people to kind of put the colorist more on the forefront, you know, with, whether that be, you know, guilds and unions or getting, you know, academy recognition or whatever.

00:25:35:10 - 00:25:54:23
Robbie
And I've always been a little bit of a mixed mind about this because it's, it's it's true that these days, especially in the mid and lower tier of things, the color is is responsible often for kind of inventing a little bit of the look and feel. Right. But on the high end that really is not the case. Right.

00:25:54:23 - 00:26:10:09
Robbie
The, the, the the high end colorist is mainly there to support the vision of the director, the DOP, and then kind of to, to to bring it all together to, to enhance it, maybe to a certain degree, but they're not inventing it. Most of, most.

00:26:10:09 - 00:26:11:07
Joey
Were realizing it.

00:26:11:07 - 00:26:26:11
Robbie
Right. They're realizing it. So like it does, I think there is a little bit of a separation there, but I do to to a broader point, I think if you're going into this world or wanting to be a color, you need a colorist. You need to do it for the reasons that are more subtle and less less seem.

00:26:26:14 - 00:26:59:10
Robbie
Then this idea of like, oh my God, I'm going to become the guy and everybody's going to know who I am, and I'm going to heave the awards on. And it just it just doesn't it just doesn't work like that. And in fact, I would say that the most successful and most highly prized, best book, highest earning colorists are often the people that are the most unassuming, soft spoken, spoken, you know, kind of relaxed people that kind of know their role and place in the process rather than trying to have to stick out, you know.

00:26:59:12 - 00:27:24:18
Joey
Yeah, I would say, and I've been guilty of this many, many times. Your ego can get in the way of doing a good job, right? If you want to be, if you want to chase the glory sometimes that glory will take the role of a very big difference when you hit before and after. Right. And that might not always be good, right?

00:27:24:20 - 00:27:52:04
Joey
We don't want to necessarily make huge sweeping changes and put a huge footprint on a project. It might feel cool as an individual. Yeah, but it could happen and often happens at the expense of the quality of the grade. So if you can kind of keep that ego in check a little bit, which we've all struggled with in the past, myself included, and kind of keep yourself grounded in the reality of a project.

00:27:52:06 - 00:28:02:09
Joey
I think you can end up with a much better grade at the end. Then you get happier clients, and then you get better projects, and the whole thing feeds back into better work.

00:28:02:11 - 00:28:28:16
Robbie
Yeah, and I think it also ultimately means I think it means more success and more consistent work and better work. I think that, whether or not clients will say this directly or not, I've never had a client say this to me, you know, either way. But I think that the more dependable and just kind of, you know, if people can just your clients can just assume that you're their go to person.

00:28:28:16 - 00:28:52:04
Robbie
That's the position you want to be in to. Right? For long term success. It's all about being the go to person for as many people as you possibly can, versus I'm the guy for one project. Look at me, look at me, look at me. And kind of basing like, this is not like this is not, you know, you know, I think about numbers about like, academics, like you and I are both into space and physics and stuff.

00:28:52:10 - 00:29:10:21
Robbie
Right. And like, you often see, like, really, really, really smart, you know, physicists who, like, when they were 25, they came up with their one idea, and then they spend the rest of their life kind of like refining into, like, that's not the color correction world, right? The thing in color correction you want to be is adaptable, flexible, and always be that go to person.

00:29:10:23 - 00:29:27:00
Robbie
And if you can do that successfully, you probably never really get all that well known outside of the, you know, the people that know, you know, you're not gonna be a household name, you're not going to be Brad Pitt or whatever, Angelina Jolie or whoever superior yourself. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, if you are unassuming, you do a good job.

00:29:27:00 - 00:29:47:00
Robbie
You are dependable. Like, that's that's what I wish. 25 years ago, somebody had told me, like, be your goal should be to be Mr. Dependable rather than Mr. Flashy. And I could have saved a lot of stress and hassle trying to, you know, be that rather than, you know, early on trying to be like the guy kind of thing, you know?

00:29:47:02 - 00:29:57:06
Joey
Yeah. And like I said, it's a learning experience. That's continual. But it it does show in the quality of your work. Your attitude can show in the quality of your work in a lot of ways.

00:29:57:10 - 00:30:19:15
Robbie
Absolutely. I think another thing that I think of often is, you know, that I, that nobody really talks about, but, is true and it has to be managed. Is that where we find ourselves in the pipeline is often at the bottom of the proverbial S hill, you know what I mean? There's that phrase that, you know, S rolls downhill.

00:30:19:17 - 00:30:44:18
Robbie
And I think, that's very true about becoming a colorist. I mean, we we experience this problem every day. You're in a session, doing a work with clients like, well, why is that text graphic off or why is that audio sound like that? Or why is that, you know, pick a thing out of a hat, right? And oftentimes I think that our, the, the role of the modern colorist is a little bit post supervisor for a lot of types of productions.

00:30:44:18 - 00:30:53:06
Robbie
Right. It is a it is a little bit of managing expectations, problem solving, trying to put the pieces together to create a cohesive final product.

00:30:53:06 - 00:30:57:05
Joey
You got to be a little bit of a traffic cop, but you got to do it in a nice way to keep everybody happy.

00:30:57:05 - 00:31:16:10
Robbie
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. And I think that, you know, early on in my career, it was, it was very easy to be like, well, I don't do that. That's not what I do. That's not my problem. And, you know, over the years I've learned that like, yeah, sure. There's certain times where, like, you physically can't do it right, like you're not going to be able to like, you know, I'm sorry.

00:31:16:10 - 00:31:40:13
Robbie
The, the, the bed for the atmos mixes is screwed up like, sorry I can't fix that. Right. You got to go back to the mixer to do it. But there's a lot of things that we can do, especially now with the tool sets that we have that win a lot of kudos, with clients. And I think I would say it by just like, you know, stretch your boundaries a little bit when you can and in a comfortable way because it can win you a lot of benefits.

00:31:40:13 - 00:31:55:21
Robbie
Right? For example, you know, somebody comes in and goes, oh, man. We, you know, we just need to make a little minor edit. A lot of colors will not touch that. They'll be like, no, you got to send that back to editorial. I mean, like I'm I'm like, dude, you can you can make that ripple edit or that roll at it.

00:31:55:21 - 00:32:01:03
Robbie
Like with five frames. You know how to do it. It's easy. Like don't need a nickel and dime, like there's a lot of little things.

00:32:01:03 - 00:32:32:01
Joey
And being pedantic about stuff like that just just makes it more stressful for you in the end. Because then, oh, now I got to conform. Now I got to do this, now I got to do that right. You know, like you said, we part of being at the end of that bottom of the, of the hill, as you say, is that we have knowledge of all of the different pieces coming in and we can kind of make an informed decision as to where we can help kind of outside of our lane and when we need to bring the other collaborators on the team and.

00:32:32:03 - 00:32:57:22
Robbie
Yes, and I think that we are in a unique position, to to do so. And I just wish that 25, 30 years ago, somebody had said to me, you know, you might want to do color correction, but it would behoove you more to, in the long run, to know a little about a lot. Right. And I think that's ultimately kind of where I've gotten I know a lot about, you know, I know a little about a lot of things.

00:32:58:00 - 00:33:19:08
Robbie
Not that I'm experts in any of any particular one, but that's a real big benefit of just where we sit in the process, knowing a little bit about a lot of various parts like camera lenses, DIT work, you know, file management, you know, whatever it may be, it all those kind of things really can pay dividends of where we are.

00:33:19:10 - 00:33:45:21
Joey
And that's one of the kind of cool things about, you know, being a career colorist is you touch so many other disciplines. Yeah, that it's always a little bit of a learning experience. And even if, you know, a project comes in and you might not understand one part of the deliverable requirements, guess what? Now you're going to learn something about a technology you didn't know about before, and you're going to leave knowing more than you started with the project.

00:33:45:21 - 00:34:06:17
Joey
If you go into it with that attitude of, I'm going to use this as a learning experience for stuff that, you know, I can kind of expand and grow a little bit. That's the positive to being at the bottom of the hill. The downside is when anybody's deadline shifts before you, it means your deadline gets tighter. But we can also learn a lot from all of these processes.

00:34:06:19 - 00:34:07:01
Joey
Yeah.

00:34:07:01 - 00:34:32:04
Robbie
And it's also about modulating what you kind of how much you put that out there. Right. So like you know, I know a tremendous amount about I don't know, just pick something out. Have a hat. Right. But I don't really market like you know, our company has like, oh we're like a, we're a DCP authoring company. Right. Because like to a certain degree, like, yes, I can do it, I know about, etc. but it's not something I love, not something I'm like, oh my God, this really completes me.

00:34:32:10 - 00:34:50:11
Robbie
So I just kind of like, don't really talk about it a lot. But when those things come up and I can see a client that's in need, or I can fill a gap really easily and not have them spend thousands and thousands and, you know, deal with difficult workflows. Then I'll insert myself in this situation. Right. And I think that ends up buying a lot of brownie points in the end.

00:34:50:13 - 00:35:04:11
Robbie
But it also helps you modulate that feeling of doing spreading yourself too thin, like, yeah, cool. You know about that. You don't have to do it. Every single time on every single project or offer that service. Everybody, you can just kind of, you know, adapt as needed.

00:35:04:13 - 00:35:43:11
Joey
Yeah. My example as, as, you know, as we talked about at length, over the past couple months, is that I recently got involved in a extremely deep technical dive into some very detailed IMF packaging issues for some various streaming platforms, and it was a huge learning experience for me because I hadn't done a huge amount of IMF stuff besides very basic, but also all of the other little things I've learned along the way about technology metadata, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, how these technologies worked and what the different pieces are.

00:35:43:17 - 00:36:01:16
Joey
Kind of let me be the hub for the engineers on this side and the edit department on this side, and how all of this has to come together. And when we had problems, it kind of let me troubleshoot and like I said, kind of be the traffic cop to figure out, okay, you need to do this, I need to do this.

00:36:01:16 - 00:36:28:09
Joey
We can put it all together this way. And it got it was so deeply technical. I found that really rewarding because I love that stuff. Not everybody will, but those are the kind of, you know, to put a positive spin on this whole thing with the changing industry and kind of the state of being a color to what nobody tells you is that there are opportunities for really rewarding challenges that you wouldn't associate with just doing a color right.

00:36:28:11 - 00:36:49:20
Robbie
100% agree. And it brings up a broader point of like, tangential career paths and career spin off right now. And like I, I've over the years, you know, for those who know me know that I've spent a lot of time in education, I've spent a lot of time in speaking and whatever in like, you know, part of I think what I hear you saying is that like, hey, you gather this knowledge, you learn about more.

00:36:49:20 - 00:37:05:05
Robbie
It might not be your core service or something you offer everybody, but you know about it. And so that leads to opportunities like, oh, hey, I can go to a conference and I can talk about XYZ intelligently. I can be on a panel and talk about this. I could write a blog for somebody about this or like whatever.

00:37:05:11 - 00:37:05:20
Robbie
And so.

00:37:05:20 - 00:37:07:03
Joey
Like make a podcast.

00:37:07:03 - 00:37:26:11
Robbie
You can make a podcast about it. Right? Like there's a whole bunch of ways that, you know, that that knowledge that you're accruing can be used in other ways, whether there are ways to monetize that knowledge or ways just to have a creative outlet like this show is for us, you know, that kind of that kind of thing can be can be super helpful.

00:37:26:16 - 00:37:48:05
Robbie
You know, the last thing I want to talk about is, you know, I have a lot of friends and family that when they talk about their careers, they talk about it as like, a series of milestones and advancements, right? Like, oh, I was the the junior partner. Now I'm the senior partner. Or like, I was the, you know, the associate, you know, director, and now I'm the director of it.

00:37:48:05 - 00:38:14:17
Robbie
Right. And I think that one thing to understand about our industry is that the the advancement and growth and moving up means something very different in our industry than it does in a lot of industries. Right? Like, you know, becoming, you know, titles are rather superfluous in our industry, right? Like you can have like, oh, I am the chief senior head honcho, supervising lead colorist.

00:38:14:17 - 00:38:34:23
Robbie
I'm like, okay, cool. Who cares? It's just it's just a title, right? For us, it doesn't necessarily mean moving up the food chain per se. Like I think where a colorist is really going to top out, doing color is okay. They're there for their their workload is 100%. So now the next logical stop step is they're managing colorist below them.

00:38:34:23 - 00:38:57:00
Robbie
Right. Assistants or or junior colorist and kind of supervising that work from there. It's kind you know if what the next step is. Right. Because a lot of that next step, whether you become a post supervisor, you are an internal producer or you're an EP, whatever often means getting out of the color suite and not doing the technical work.

00:38:57:00 - 00:39:19:17
Robbie
Right. So I think that, you know, one of the things I wish I had known is that, like growth is a very subjective thing within our industry. And what it really often means is working on bigger, more visible type projects than it is. You know, the crappy on invisible type work. It doesn't necessary really mean bigger pay rate.

00:39:19:18 - 00:39:33:08
Robbie
You know, bigger pay, better benefits, more glory and all that kind of stuff. It can often just mean actually the opposite. It can mean more headaches, more technical challenges, more, you know, problems to deal with.

00:39:33:09 - 00:39:52:04
Joey
Yeah, I, I totally agree. And you, as the individual artist, kind of need to decide what type of growth and career path fits you best because it's not going to be, you know, colorist level one, colorist level two, three, four in advance. Like.

00:39:52:06 - 00:40:17:04
Robbie
Dude, it's even it's even like even like more based than that. Like so you know, a couple years ago I decided to do an MBA, right? And like most people in the world be like, well, I'm going to do an MBA, because if I have an advanced degree, it means that I can get paid more for my job or get a better title and move up in the world like my boss, Robbie Carmen, is not paying me more because I got, you know, got an advanced degree, you know what I'm saying?

00:40:17:04 - 00:40:47:22
Robbie
So, like, there are certain things that we have to you have to do in the color world that maybe betterment and improvement and enrichment, but they don't necessarily correlate to more money, higher visibility, etc.. So kind of like modulating those expectations of what career advancement means as a colorist is something I wish I understood a little bit better, because I thought by the time, you know, almost 50, it would mean Ferraris, mansions, private planes.

00:40:48:03 - 00:40:51:21
Robbie
It hasn't quite panned out that great yet. But I.

00:40:51:21 - 00:40:52:21
Joey
Sold my Ferrari.

00:40:52:21 - 00:41:14:03
Robbie
It was. I know it's always those those little oil changes cost an arm and a leg for those things. You know, it's crazy. So I just. I just wish I had known that in mind, because what I found myself doing over my career is enriching myself in ways that are important to me personally, but don't necessarily benefit me in my work like it might be for other types of career.

00:41:14:03 - 00:41:15:11
Robbie
So that's important to know for sure.

00:41:15:16 - 00:41:50:20
Joey
Yeah. So I mean, I think, I think we got a good balance here of the doom and gloom and some actual actionable solutions and perspective. Right. It's at the end of the day, like you said, I wouldn't trade it for the world. I love this job. I love what we're doing. I like the yeah, I like sitting down and going through 1000 shots and making them all better, and then watching the show and seeing it come together at the very end and being the I like being the end of the process and the last set of critical eyes on it because I, I, it just makes me feel good about it, you know.

00:41:51:02 - 00:42:03:13
Joey
Yeah, I love this job. So it might not be for everyone. And there's different approaches to it, but I want to I want to end on a positive note. It's still a great thing to do.

00:42:03:15 - 00:42:22:07
Robbie
I'll do the same thing. I think that I'm more prone to doom and gloom than you are sometimes. I also think that, like any job, there are, there are peaks and valleys in this kind of thing, you know, where sometimes you're feeling on top of the world, and sometimes you're feeling, like, you know, the most untalented, worst colors in the world.

00:42:22:07 - 00:42:36:19
Robbie
I can't tell you how many times you know, a week that I'm, like, having a conversation with my wife or my family. I'm like, I'm the worst colorist ever. And she's like, no, you're not. And I'm like, yes, I am. No you're not, yes, I am. And then you're like, you know, oh, well, I just wrote me a nice note saying how much they love the project.

00:42:36:19 - 00:42:59:05
Robbie
So I guess I'm not the worst colors today. So I mean, there is that, that, that ebb and flow that you kind of have to ride to. And I also just think that, you know, if you're getting into the game now, it's really challenging. Just because we are at the boat is rocking so much. I company canceled an industry consolidation, industry change.

00:42:59:05 - 00:43:20:23
Robbie
Like it's a really, really wacky time. And I think if you go into it with open eyes about the broader picture, a broader set of skills, and do what you love like nobody ever didn't. You know, if you do what you love, no day feels like work, right? And I think that that is, you know, that's true today as it was 10 or 20, 25 years ago.

00:43:21:00 - 00:43:38:17
Robbie
You know, so I, I agree that I would rather there's nothing I'd rather be doing maybe than, you know, being a rock star and, and touring, you know, in front of arenas every night. But that ship has also sailed. So I guess I'll take me in a economist. All right, so for the onset podcast, I'm Robbie Carman.

00:43:38:19 - 00:43:46:22
Joey
And I'm Joey D’Anna. Thanks for listening.