EP030: Discussing Monitors Part 1

01:00:03:21 - 01:00:07:26
Hey there, and welcome back to another installment
of The Offset Podcast. And today,

01:00:08:01 - 01:00:12:05
we're taking a look at the state of
monitors in 2025. Stay tuned.

01:00:18:04 - 01:00:23:19
This podcast is sponsored by Flanders Scientific, leaders
in color accurate display solutions for

01:00:23:19 - 01:00:28:27
professional video. Whether you're a colorist, an
editor, a DIT, or a broadcast engineer,

01:00:29:06 - 01:00:33:00
Flanders Scientific has a professional display
solution to meet your needs.

01:00:33:10 - 01:00:35:21
Learn more at FlandersScientific.com.

01:00:36:23 - 01:00:41:04
Hey everybody, welcome back to another installment of
The Offset Podcast

01:00:41:04 - 01:00:44:12
I am Robbie Carman, and with me as always is Joey D'Anna.

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Joey, how you doing buddy?

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Good, how are you?

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I am good, man. Spring is in the
air. I'm wearing pink. I'm feeling like

01:00:52:09 - 01:00:56:25
it's monitor season. Every spring, I sort of start
to feel like it's monitor season for a

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couple of reasons. One, it's kind of like trade show
season, you know, so like everybody's going

01:01:00:19 - 01:01:05:08
to big trade shows and talking about monitors. And it
just seems like, you know, post the holidays

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and you know, the start of a new year, everybody's
like, hey, what's my big purchase going to be

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this year? And it's probably a reference monitor, right?
That is something that colorists and DITs

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and stuff are always thinking about. And so I wanted
to spend this episode talking a little bit

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about, I don't know, the state of affairs of monitors.
I think we went through a period for

01:01:23:14 - 01:01:30:03
a couple of years where things were really kind of like
flat, kind of boring. It was clearly that

01:01:30:03 - 01:01:34:14
like everybody was doing kind of stopgap things. And
to a certain degree, I think we're probably

01:01:34:14 - 01:01:40:23
still in that zone. But I wanted to talk about monitors,
but here's the thing, man, is that you

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and I can flap all we want about monitors and SDI connections and contrast ratios. But the fact is,

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is that we have some very, very smart friends who are
experts in this field and know quite a bit

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more than we do about this. So today we thought we'd
have a little bit of a special episode.

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This is going to be part one of a two part series, kind of
exploring the state of affairs on monitors.

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And we are lucky to be joined by these three gentlemen.
Hi, guys. How are you? Let me introduce

01:02:10:19 - 01:02:15:26
everybody. First of all, we have Bram Desmet from
FSI. Bram, actually you and Nate,

01:02:15:28 - 01:02:19:25
who I'll introduce in a second, have the honor of
being our only return guests. That's because

01:02:20:08 - 01:02:25:14
we've only had two guests before, both of you. So
congratulations for being return guests.

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We have Bram Desmet from FSI, who is the CEO and
general manager down there. He is a guru of

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all things, display manufacturing, process, technology
of displays, that kind of stuff.

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We have Nate McFarlin from Dolby.
Hey, Nate, how are you, man?

01:02:40:21 - 01:02:41:06
Doing well.

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Nate is a engineer, validator, jack of all trades
over at Dolby. At Dolby Labs, he explores

01:02:50:26 - 01:02:55:04
you know, if the proof is in the pudding with
monitors, he does a lot of training

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and part of the certification process for Dolby.
For those of you who want to become

01:03:00:14 - 01:03:04:24
Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos certified, that's
kind of Nate's area of expertise.

01:03:05:22 - 01:03:09:16
And he is my go-to person for any time
I have a question about,

01:03:10:29 - 01:03:14:21
hey, is this a good purchase to buy? What
do you think? Is the truth here?

01:03:15:08 - 01:03:19:12
So he'll have some good perspectives about monitors
from Dolby's perspective and validation,

01:03:19:20 - 01:03:25:04
that kind of stuff. And then we also have David Abrams.
David is a, how am I going to say this?

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I think David is like the guru among gurus when it
comes to calibration. If you talk to any,

01:03:31:19 - 01:03:37:14
pretty much any post-production facility or any colorist,
they will know David's name and his

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calibration company, AviCal. And David also is now at
Portrait Displays. David came out with a awesome

01:03:45:15 - 01:03:49:04
application. What was that David? Probably about
three or four years ago you released

01:03:50:21 - 01:03:56:18
your app. Patterns. Patterns test generator. Yeah, so Patterns is a very cool application to

01:03:56:18 - 01:04:01:08
be able to interface and do calibration on computer
monitors, displays. It's a very cool

01:04:01:08 - 01:04:06:15
app. We'll let him talk about it a little bit more in
detail in just a bit. But David's expertise is

01:04:06:15 - 01:04:10:27
obviously with anything calibration. He's probably,
I mean, I'm guessing David at this point, you

01:04:10:29 - 01:04:16:00
probably calibrated a hundred thousand displays or
something ridiculous. It's probably a lot, right?

01:04:16:25 - 01:04:21:18
It's about, you know, actually, I actually had to look
this up at some point. It's about 25,000.

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Oh my gosh. So if anybody's going to have the experience
and who's sort of seen it and done it

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and seen all the gotchas is David. So guys, we can't
thank you enough for jumping on. We're really

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excited to sort of talk about some of this stuff.
And so I want to spend just kind of a couple

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minutes with each one of you. And then like I said,
in part two of this, of this series, we'll

01:04:44:10 - 01:04:50:05
come back and kind of explore some of the hot button
topics, things that are on our minds that

01:04:50:05 - 01:04:57:03
you guys are experts in. So, Bram, let's start with you,
man. I'll put you on the spot. You know, I

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think when I think of your expertise, I often think about
all of the, I don't know, probably at this

01:05:02:28 - 01:05:09:08
point, thousands of hours that you've spent in conference
rooms at shows, you know, at big trade

01:05:09:08 - 01:05:13:16
shows, listening to monitor presentations. And I'm
not talking about like the marketing people.

01:05:13:16 - 01:05:19:11
I'm talking about like the uber engineer guys who
are talking about like sub pixels and

01:05:19:19 - 01:05:27:05
quantum this and quantum that, right? I guess my first
question for you is, you know, as a monitor,

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you know, provider maker, what goes into picking
technologies and panels and stuff? And kind of

01:05:33:29 - 01:05:38:03
how do you stay on top of that? Like, because it seems
like it's an ever shifting, ever developing

01:05:38:14 - 01:05:44:16
kind of landscape. Yeah. Well, first, thanks for having me on and really appreciate what you guys

01:05:44:16 - 01:05:52:04
are doing. And yeah, it's, it's always a challenge. So
what we do is we have good contacts at various

01:05:52:07 - 01:05:56:18
semiconductor manufacturers. So the big companies
that make the panels themselves,

01:05:57:13 - 01:06:00:26
so we have ongoing relationships with those. So a lot
of that is just relationships that have been

01:06:00:26 - 01:06:05:10
built over the last 20 years and having discussions about
what they're working on their future road

01:06:05:10 - 01:06:12:27
maps. There's other, you know, like any industry, there's
also trade shows and organizations that

01:06:12:27 - 01:06:19:03
kind of cater to our very niche kind of needs. So
one that we try to go to, for example, or I

01:06:19:03 - 01:06:26:25
personally go to is SIDs Display Week at SIDs Display
Week. And that event essentially brings

01:06:26:26 - 01:06:33:03
together those semiconductor manufacturers, probe
manufacturers. It's kind of a level removed from

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this type of stuff. I think that colorists, editors, DITs
are interested in because it's not complete

01:06:38:17 - 01:06:44:21
products. But it is a good opportunity to meet with
those companies, talk to them about what

01:06:44:21 - 01:06:50:15
they're doing. Obviously, a lot of this happens overseas.
So this is one of the few kind of events

01:06:50:15 - 01:06:55:07
that happens more, more state side. And then just a
lot of, you know, industry trade stuff, press

01:06:55:07 - 01:07:00:21
releases, we try to keep on top of what everybody
is making and how technologies are evolving.

01:07:02:09 - 01:07:06:14
you often times get really excited about things on paper
and they get really disappointed when you

01:07:06:14 - 01:07:13:07
evaluate them. So a lot of evaluation, a lot of rejection
of technologies. So yeah, it's a kind

01:07:13:07 - 01:07:21:08
of ongoing ever evolving process. And it's, yeah, it's
a kind of a full time job. Yeah, I was gonna,

01:07:21:08 - 01:07:26:06
I was gonna say, do you have as a display manufacturer
and being more in the know than we

01:07:26:06 - 01:07:32:06
are, do you struggle with having to wade through a lot
of the marketing part of this as well? Like,

01:07:32:06 - 01:07:36:21
you know, like, because it just seems to me that like,
you know, one of the challenges for, you know,

01:07:36:21 - 01:07:41:00
our audience as colorists, editors, etc. is like, you
know, a company will come out and be like,

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hey, this is the ultra quantum, you know, do hickey.
And it sounds revolutionary, right? But like,

01:07:47:01 - 01:07:51:29
do you have to wade through that same level? Or when
you're evaluating displays, is it more of

01:07:51:29 - 01:07:54:23
like, no, we get rid of that, we're just dealing
with the engineering part of it?

01:07:55:23 - 01:08:00:09
So I think we've learned enough over, you know, I've
been in the industry about 20 years now,

01:08:00:09 - 01:08:06:01
and we've learned enough about evaluating specs,
specifications, even just on paper,

01:08:06:01 - 01:08:10:10
and we can quickly wade through a lot of the marketing
BS and know, you know, what we can

01:08:10:10 - 01:08:15:17
expect out of display technology based on things
like the report specifications or reported

01:08:17:01 - 01:08:21:04
spectral power distributions, sometimes we get access
to that information. But there's a lot

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of marketing hype to wade through. It's not so much
the marketing hype is easy for us to kind

01:08:27:14 - 01:08:34:12
of suss out what's real, what's, you know, again, hype.
The harder thing for me, the thing that

01:08:34:28 - 01:08:40:23
frustrates me more is misuse of terminology, or
giving things names that are intentionally

01:08:40:28 - 01:08:50:26
very confusing. You mean LED TVs? LED TVs, you know, calling things, you know, very similarly

01:08:50:28 - 01:08:56:15
named things like tandem primary, this and that and
versus regular tandem OLED. Well, I gotta say,

01:08:56:15 - 01:09:01:25
I was really disappointed when I bought a quantum dot
television that I like didn't get entangled

01:09:01:27 - 01:09:05:17
and like, all of a sudden just start seeing I don't
know, that's bad joke, but you get the idea.

01:09:06:24 - 01:09:13:29
It's true. So some of those naming conventions and stuff
can be confusing. And yeah, so that that's

01:09:13:29 - 01:09:18:09
always a challenge. But I think we've gotten pretty good
at sussing those things out. And ultimately,

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what it comes down to is buy samples, test the product,
see if we think there's a market for it.

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And then also try to do our due diligence on, you
know, staying power of that technology,

01:09:29:11 - 01:09:33:28
because that's really been the biggest frustration over
my last 20 years of doing this is that you

01:09:34:00 - 01:09:37:25
get really excited about something. And what we've
seen time and again is that unfortunately,

01:09:37:25 - 01:09:44:05
a lot of times the best performing technologies are
so niche, so expensive that the providers

01:09:44:05 - 01:09:49:24
of those technologies, there's not really a market here,
we're going to stop. And so we've seen those

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instances, sometimes it's a, you know, thing where
you have three, four or five years of notice,

01:09:53:26 - 01:09:59:15
and then sometimes it's just overnight that company's
gone. So we've gotten a lot more careful

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about that. And luckily, a lot of the mass market stuff
that's produced in high qualities and tends

01:10:04:24 - 01:10:10:26
to have staying power has gotten a lot better. So there's
less of that worry now than there used to

01:10:10:26 - 01:10:14:21
be. But that's been an ongoing frustration over the
years. Yeah, I was gonna I imagine that's a

01:10:14:21 - 01:10:19:17
challenging kind of thing. Like, how do you like, you're
having to read the tea leaves a little bit

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about like, okay, this is what's coming, this is what's
potentially gonna have the same power.

01:10:23:22 - 01:10:30:11
Like in the broader sense, would you say that your
your work, your R&D work is a couple years

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or a couple months? Like, what's the time period ahead
that you generally are for when like a guy

01:10:35:16 - 01:10:39:14
like me is buying a monitor, right? Is that a couple
years is a couple months? Like does it vary?

01:10:40:07 - 01:10:46:11
It does vary. So when we do like the back, the back
end hardware that drives the panels, when we

01:10:46:11 - 01:10:52:08
do a change there, that is something that typically will
be, you know, in development for a couple of

01:10:52:09 - 01:10:57:20
years before anybody knows or sees anything about it.
In terms of new panel technologies, though,

01:10:57:20 - 01:11:02:12
as long as we have a platform that supports the type
of connection going to that panel, whether

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that's, you know, EDP or LVDS, or whatever it may be
at UHD 4K, HD resolutions, whatever it is,

01:11:09:02 - 01:11:13:14
as long as we have the back end hardware that can fit
into that, is it's actually, you'd be surprised

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how quickly we can get a prototype ready. So we can
get an extra panel and have something up and

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running in like three, four weeks. So it can go quickly,
then there's always, you know, the

01:11:23:07 - 01:11:29:18
debugging and the fine tuning, and we're constantly
iterating, trying to improve, you know, find

01:11:29:18 - 01:11:35:03
problems, catch problems, improve on things. But it
is a, you know, it's a constant evolution.

01:11:36:16 - 01:11:41:23
But yeah, it varies a bit. But there are, you know, there
are platforms that have been in the works for

01:11:42:02 - 01:11:46:19
years that haven't seen the light of day yet. But there
is a lot of that happening behind the scenes

01:11:46:19 - 01:11:52:26
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I often I think it's
easy to think of like a company like FSI or

01:11:52:26 - 01:11:57:13
other monitor companies as like hardware companies.
But like the fascinating thing to me is like,

01:11:57:29 - 01:12:02:23
and I don't know if this is 100% accurate, it
just seems this way to me is that like,

01:12:03:02 - 01:12:07:25
you guys are almost more of a software company at
times than you are than you are a hardware

01:12:07:25 - 01:12:12:03
company, right? Figuring out like functionality of
this button is going to do this. This is the

01:12:12:04 - 01:12:17:04
feature that this group looks for. Can
you speak to just in general, like how

01:12:18:15 - 01:12:23:25
the the process or the challenge of kind of like designing
features and figuring out like, okay,

01:12:23:25 - 01:12:27:27
this is going to be something that we think this group
of, you know, our customers are going to

01:12:27:27 - 01:12:31:26
want or need. Like what goes into that thinking and
the kind of like the development of that?

01:12:32:10 - 01:12:36:03
Yeah, so when we have new panels or new back
end architecture that's developed,

01:12:37:03 - 01:12:43:14
we take the approach of first focusing on color
reproduction, color accuracy, and then also

01:12:43:15 - 01:12:48:17
displaying video correctly. That means things like,
you know, displaying whatever, you know,

01:12:48:17 - 01:12:53:03
frame rate you're getting at an even integer frame rate
on screen so that you have proper cadence of

01:12:53:06 - 01:12:59:13
video. So we work on the basics first. That's we start
with what most people buy a monitor from us

01:12:59:15 - 01:13:05:01
for, and that is color accuracy and accurate display
of the content on screen. Then from there,

01:13:05:03 - 01:13:09:20
we have, you know, things that we think a lot of times
stuff that customers haven't asked for,

01:13:09:20 - 01:13:13:05
but that we think will bring a lot of value to market.
We have a lot of our own ideas about

01:13:13:05 - 01:13:16:25
those things and we develop those out and we, you
know, have those come out as features.

01:13:17:08 - 01:13:23:05
But you're right. We are very much a company that
focuses on we're essentially a company that,

01:13:23:05 - 01:13:26:22
you know, hardware is part of what we do certainly,
but a lot of our time and effort

01:13:27:10 - 01:13:32:02
is spent on firmware. A lot of that comes from feedback
from customers. And a lot of times it's

01:13:32:03 - 01:13:36:22
just us, you know, we think we know how our displays
are going to be used and then you're

01:13:36:22 - 01:13:41:02
oftentimes surprised. So a good kind of, I think
the two real world examples of that,

01:13:41:02 - 01:13:44:23
when we introduced the XMP series monitors were
like, cool, we're going to focus on UHD,

01:13:45:00 - 01:13:50:05
Progressive, PQ, HLG. That's what people are going
to be using these for. Then we start.

01:13:50:05 - 01:13:52:14
And then there's Rob, then there's Robbie making web videos.

01:13:53:10 - 01:13:57:10
It's not just web videos, but it is people
like you who are like, you're like,

01:13:57:11 - 01:14:01:15
hey, you know what? We deliver an inordinate amount
of interlaced still. And we're like,

01:14:01:15 - 01:14:07:04
oh crap, you know, because the inside baseball, one of the things that I, I ought of the many

01:14:07:04 - 01:14:10:18
things that I drive Bram crazy with, it's the fact
that I'm always saying something about

01:14:10:18 - 01:14:15:27
interlacing and Bram's general responses.
Aren't we over interlacing yet? Like,

01:14:15:27 - 01:14:20:26
what's going on should have died a long time ago? Yeah. But, but, but it is. So, so those types of things.

01:14:20:26 - 01:14:24:11
So we added those as features. So that's a good
example of like, what I love is that,

01:14:24:12 - 01:14:29:03
yes, we build a hardware platform, to do a certain thing,
but that platform tends to be really

01:14:29:03 - 01:14:33:06
flexible, right? And we can do a lot with firmware.
So when we, when we got a lot of this feedback

01:14:33:06 - 01:14:37:24
about, hey, I want to see interlaced on screen, like
a CRT monitor would show it, we did that.

01:14:38:04 - 01:14:43:01
And I think we're one of the few kind of large
format monitors, certainly, certainly UHD

01:14:43:01 - 01:14:48:09
resolution monitors that actually can replicate interlaced
very much like a reference grade CRT

01:14:48:09 - 01:14:52:14
would. So you can see things like field reversals,
accurately. Now there are a lot of consumer TVs

01:14:52:14 - 01:14:58:03
that do a good job of, of, of converting interlaced
to progressive and making it look

01:14:58:03 - 01:15:02:13
really good. But typically those have six, seven
frames of processing delay to do that.

01:15:02:19 - 01:15:07:11
And ultimately you're still not seeing it as
interlaced on screen. So what we do is we're

01:15:07:11 - 01:15:11:16
actually showing it to you as interlaced. The other
good example was HD. We thought everybody

01:15:11:16 - 01:15:16:21
was going to be using these things for UHD and just
UHD and 4K. And that's it. A lot of people

01:15:16:21 - 01:15:21:05
were like, Hey, we need HD. And we were doing very,
you know, very basic nearest neighbor scaling.

01:15:21:15 - 01:15:27:14
And it has jaggy edges when you do that. So it is, we
developed a higher-quality bicubic scaling.

01:15:27:29 - 01:15:30:28
So now that scaling is approved. So those are the
types of things where it's just customer

01:15:30:28 - 01:15:35:02
feedback, right? People saying, Hey, you know, these
are what we think are highest priority.

01:15:35:02 - 01:15:38:22
And then it's, you know, like any company working
on software or firmware, it's, you know,

01:15:39:04 - 01:15:42:17
priority lists, you know, where, what do we think
is going to have the greatest impact to the

01:15:42:17 - 01:15:46:08
industry? What's going to, you know, selfishly
help us sell more displays?

01:15:47:20 - 01:15:48:18
Yeah, squashing of bugs that kinda stuff

01:15:48:18 - 01:15:54:08
we're constantly iterating there. And in post, they're really only a core set of things. They're not,

01:15:54:08 - 01:15:59:10
there's not that much to tackle. So a lot of, you
know, a lot of the preliminary stuff,

01:15:59:10 - 01:16:03:04
or let's get everything ready for post. And then we
start digging into catering more to those,

01:16:03:18 - 01:16:07:29
to those production applications, where there are
a lot more of these like really niche,

01:16:07:29 - 01:16:12:28
you know, requests like, Hey, I want to do four, four
images into a monitor. I want to do custom

01:16:13:02 - 01:16:19:03
look LUTs. I want to control it via Livegrade. And so we
build those things out over time to cater to

01:16:19:03 - 01:16:23:28
more and more. I mean, we already operate in a super
niche space, right? And then we cater to

01:16:24:04 - 01:16:28:07
niche segments of this already niche space, but, but
that, that's, that's what makes us different

01:16:28:07 - 01:16:32:17
than an off the shelf computer monitor or something,
right? So we enjoy that. That's,

01:16:32:17 - 01:16:37:16
that's part of what, what we think makes us a little
special. So yeah, so we spend our time

01:16:37:16 - 01:16:38:09
and effort on it.

01:16:38:16 - 01:16:42:16
Yeah. I mean, in part two, we'll get more into some
of your prognostications on like what the

01:16:43:06 - 01:16:47:11
industry and the future trends are. But I
got one last question before we, we

01:16:47:28 - 01:16:54:12
ask Nate a few ones here as well. Like one of the things
I'm fascinated by is, and this might be

01:16:54:12 - 01:16:59:29
unique to you, but it just seems in general that I see
this a lot with display companies like that

01:16:59:29 - 01:17:05:11
intersection of color science and that this technology
too is also really interesting to

01:17:05:11 - 01:17:10:01
me. Like I think a lot of people who know you or have
come to know you or see you at a trade show

01:17:10:02 - 01:17:15:15
floor, like you become a resource for color science,
you know, type questions, right? And

01:17:15:22 - 01:17:21:10
I know you spend a lot of time, you know, studying this
stuff and talking to other experts. Like just

01:17:21:17 - 01:17:27:00
briefly, what is that intersection like for you?
Like, cause like, you know, obviously color

01:17:27:00 - 01:17:32:04
science has a lot of uses, meanings, et cetera, but
as a display manufacturer, like why is that

01:17:32:04 - 01:17:37:14
something that, you know, you guys focus on so much? Is
it part of that accuracy equation? Is it part of,

01:17:38:02 - 01:17:44:08
uh, you know, just answering people's questions? Like
why spend so much time learning something,

01:17:44:08 - 01:17:49:13
you know, and being an expert in color science?
Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, people buy our

01:17:49:13 - 01:17:54:03
monitors, I think primarily for accurate color reproduction,
right? That's, that's kind of the

01:17:54:03 - 01:17:58:16
paramount thing. And, um, as I tell, you know, like
our sales team, for example, it's like,

01:17:58:16 - 01:18:02:22
what you're really selling people is confidence,
right? So to be confident that the image is

01:18:02:22 - 01:18:07:00
correct. So the only way to be confident that the
image is correct is to really know the color

01:18:07:01 - 01:18:10:29
science through and through. So you need to know the
industry specifications. You need to know how

01:18:10:29 - 01:18:15:28
to adhere those specifications. You need to know how
to calibrate those specifications. Um, and you

01:18:15:28 - 01:18:20:13
need to understand kind of the gotchas and caveats and
cause none of this is straightforward, you know,

01:18:20:13 - 01:18:27:03
and especially when you get to, um, to more, you
know, advanced, if you want to say targets,

01:18:27:03 - 01:18:33:11
like we talked about PQ and HLG and Rec. 2020 and, and,
you know, uh, out of monitor gamut targets

01:18:33:17 - 01:18:37:20
and how you handle that first, uh, you know, cause
there's, there's multiple ways to handle it.

01:18:37:20 - 01:18:41:17
What's the correct way to handle it. And then we also
interface a lot with industry standards

01:18:41:17 - 01:18:46:24
bodies, you know, so we try to talk to people at SMPTE.
We try to talk to people at EBU. Um, we,

01:18:46:24 - 01:18:52:24
we participate in, you know, uh, you know, very nuanced
niche events. Like we did December,

01:18:53:05 - 01:18:58:12
we did a metamerism experts day in the UK. And that sort
of stuff is really fascinating to me on a

01:18:58:12 - 01:19:03:13
personal level, but it also helps us, you know, uh, cater
to our, to our clients because our clients

01:19:03:13 - 01:19:09:03
have these questions, you know, so, Hey, when I'm in
Rec. 2020, why does it do this or what should it

01:19:09:03 - 01:19:14:26
be doing? Um, Hey, when I'm in PQ, you know, what, what
ranges should I be operating in all these

01:19:14:26 - 01:19:18:16
sorts of things? Like we need to know that stuff. And
then again, when it comes down to the color

01:19:18:16 - 01:19:24:19
science part of it, you know, the challenges like
metamerism failures, of metamerism, in

01:19:24:21 - 01:19:30:29
terms of display matching, um, uh, inter observer,
metamerism, uh, all those sorts of things become,

01:19:30:29 - 01:19:33:23
become really important that you can only understand
that if you really understand the

01:19:33:23 - 01:19:38:23
underlying color science. So that's why we're obsessed
with it and why we spend so much

01:19:38:23 - 01:19:44:19
time trying to learn everything we can about those topics.
So now I want to talk to Nate a little bit

01:19:44:19 - 01:19:51:22
about his perspective from Dolby as a color scientist
and an engineer, because I think

01:19:52:14 - 01:19:58:10
Dolby has a pretty unique place in the industry when
it comes to displays, right? They've driven

01:19:58:21 - 01:20:04:23
display innovation in the past, making prototypes, making
new technologies, basically inventing and

01:20:04:23 - 01:20:11:10
introducing us to what I consider to be, you know, the
biggest shift in how we encode and display an

01:20:11:10 - 01:20:20:04
image since color, which is HDR. And, but at the end
of the day, they don't make TVs. They don't

01:20:20:04 - 01:20:28:00
make or sell reference monitors. They make kind of
innovative technologies around the imaging

01:20:28:04 - 01:20:35:01
space and partner with all these companies like FSI,
like the consumer TV manufacturers to kind of

01:20:35:01 - 01:20:42:03
make sure the image is shown in the best kind of possible
light. And a big part of that I know is

01:20:42:26 - 01:20:51:01
testing a huge array and variety of monitors, right?
I've seen pictures. And when we went to Dolby,

01:20:51:01 - 01:20:58:18
I've seen like rooms filled with monitors of, you know,
everywhere from little ones to huge ones,

01:20:58:18 - 01:21:04:10
to prototypes, to off the shelf consumer TVs, to whackadoodle stuff that you've never even heard of.

01:21:05:00 - 01:21:10:22
Why is it so important to test all these monitors and
tell us a little bit about what actually kind

01:21:10:22 - 01:21:16:27
of goes into testing all these monitors of different
capabilities? You know, how do you

01:21:16:27 - 01:21:20:04
kind of bring it all together into, okay, I'm going to
look at a monitor, this is what I'm going to

01:21:20:04 - 01:21:25:00
look for. And this is why I'm going to look for those
factors. Yeah, sure. Happy to talk about

01:21:25:00 - 01:21:30:29
that. And thank you guys for having me on again. I'm
honored to be a returning guest. But yeah,

01:21:30:29 - 01:21:37:03
no, I to Joey's point, I think Dolby has a really cool
intersection, just as a company. It's one of

01:21:37:04 - 01:21:41:14
the reasons why I love working here is that we really
do sit at this really niche intersection

01:21:41:15 - 01:21:45:28
of art and science, which is something that's very,
you know, it's home for me, I'm very

01:21:45:28 - 01:21:51:12
passionate about, but also very cool to see how we've
influenced, you know, the changing ecosystem,

01:21:51:18 - 01:21:57:11
and also really, really great to always see folks coming
to us as a resource or, you know, a beacon

01:21:57:24 - 01:22:03:07
in the evangelization and education for HDR. So
your question about monitors is a great one.

01:22:03:20 - 01:22:09:11
Part of the complexity here is that we deal with things
on both the creation side and also the

01:22:09:11 - 01:22:15:16
playback side, right? So from my point of view, I work
typically, most frequently on the content

01:22:15:16 - 01:22:22:00
creation side of things. So the way I typically will
approach any sort of display evaluation is

01:22:22:00 - 01:22:28:10
wearing this hat of like, hey, would this display be
suitable for creating HDR content that will

01:22:28:10 - 01:22:35:13
eventually be mastered in Dolby Vision and go downstream
to a Dolby Vision device. So, from a very fundamental level

01:22:35:13 - 01:22:40:04
think it's a lot of the same sort of considerations
of Bram was just speaking about, right? Things

01:22:40:04 - 01:22:45:17
like color accuracy, luminance performance, black level,
stepping out of black, how additive is the

01:22:45:17 - 01:22:51:21
display. And that's a lot of kind of the more scientific
or numerical objective approach that

01:22:51:21 - 01:22:58:01
I would say. But there's also a really big component
of usability, right? So as these displays

01:22:58:06 - 01:23:04:09
continue to become more accessible, more folks are
reaching them and using them, but that also

01:23:04:09 - 01:23:10:02
means that more uneducated folks, right? So people that
don't have a background in color science or

01:23:10:02 - 01:23:16:00
maybe are getting into editing or post or VFX or things
for the first time. So a lot of it's not

01:23:16:00 - 01:23:20:24
just, hey, how accurately does this track PQ or what
are the primaries looking like? But it's like

01:23:21:03 - 01:23:25:17
something as simple as, hey, how easy is it to navigate
the menu? How easy can you set up

01:23:25:17 - 01:23:32:18
picture profiles and do things? And one of my close
colleagues at Dolby Timo Kunkel and I talk

01:23:32:18 - 01:23:37:26
about this all the time. And we say that in general,
I'd say that we're getting to a spot where

01:23:38:00 - 01:23:44:08
displays are continuously improving, which is really
great for HDR accessibility throughout

01:23:44:09 - 01:23:49:14
the whole ecosystem. But they're coming with a lot of
added complexities. And I'm sure we can talk

01:23:49:14 - 01:23:54:20
about this a little more in the next episode as well.
But I almost equate it to things like when

01:23:54:22 - 01:24:00:04
you shoot a video or a picture on your iPhone, right?
Where it's very hard to manually dial it

01:24:00:04 - 01:24:02:24
in and you're kind of just trusting that the software
is doing the right things, right? And

01:24:02:24 - 01:24:07:01
that's permeated all the way to displays. And that's
why reference displays like the ones that

01:24:07:01 - 01:24:12:27
FSI make are so valuable, right? Because there are no
algorithms tweaking things. It's literally just

01:24:12:27 - 01:24:17:02
like signal in, signal out and being able to trust that
in sell confidence like you guys were talking

01:24:17:02 - 01:24:23:00
about earlier is super, super important. But so that's
kind of how the testing is done or kind

01:24:23:01 - 01:24:29:04
of the framework we typically like to use. But from
also just say kind of an ecosystem point of

01:24:29:04 - 01:24:33:14
view. We also just like to compare different technologies,
see where the industry is heading.

01:24:34:12 - 01:24:40:29
It's very important for us to also stay up to date
on informing the partners like Bram and

01:24:41:06 - 01:24:45:16
FSI and all these other folks of like what our
users are asking for. Because ultimately,

01:24:45:16 - 01:24:50:12
like Dolby has a vested interest in creating or help
folks creating the best HDR content so that

01:24:50:15 - 01:24:55:28
when you get to the end user experience, you're getting
really compelling viewing experiences.

01:24:57:00 - 01:25:00:22
So we're obviously very vested in helping our partners
create the best displays as possible as

01:25:00:22 - 01:25:04:21
well. And we'd like to hope that that's valuable. So
maybe Bram, I don't know. I'd like to hope

01:25:04:21 - 01:25:10:05
that Bram appreciates my evaluations. Yeah.
And that's interesting because I feel like you

01:25:10:05 - 01:25:16:13
kind of have to sit between the consumer, the artist
and the manufacturers, right? Because

01:25:17:05 - 01:25:22:06
the artists might be asking for one thing, I just want
to do everything 100 nits the same way I've

01:25:22:06 - 01:25:27:06
been doing it forever because I have one film print
LUT that I love and why doesn't it always

01:25:27:06 - 01:25:32:00
look the same in HDR? Whereas, you know, the consumer
TV manufacturers and less so the

01:25:32:00 - 01:25:37:03
professional monitor manufacturers, but to some degree,
they want to kind of show off the technology

01:25:37:03 - 01:25:43:17
and take it to, oh, you can go to five bajillion nits
on this. How great is that? How do you kind

01:25:43:17 - 01:25:50:29
of navigate when you're talking to both, you know,
manufacturers and artists and other kind of

01:25:50:29 - 01:25:55:04
kind of when you're sitting in the middle of all of
this, how do you kind of bring it all together

01:25:55:04 - 01:26:00:02
and say, okay, here's how I'm going to, you know, get
a set of recommendations that will kind of

01:26:00:02 - 01:26:06:03
make everybody happy and nobody mad. It's tough. That's, that's very hard. You'll notice

01:26:06:03 - 01:26:12:01
David and Bram both laughing at that. This is why Nate still has hair because he's a lot younger.

01:26:14:10 - 01:26:16:17
Dave and I are both bald now. That's right!

01:26:18:23 - 01:26:22:10
No, it's a really good question, honestly. And this
is something that we speak to a lot in our

01:26:22:10 - 01:26:27:12
trainings is that I think this whole discussion was
a lot easier back, you know, a few decades ago

01:26:27:12 - 01:26:33:20
when folks were no matter where you were looking at
some flavor of CRT, relatively similar size,

01:26:33:20 - 01:26:39:18
right? There's just so many formats and variability now
between different display types, whether it's

01:26:39:18 - 01:26:45:13
OLED, LCD, dual layer, you know, QD OLED, you know,
there's so many different flavors of display

01:26:45:13 - 01:26:48:28
technology, but then there's also so many form factors,
right? I mean, this is something that's

01:26:48:28 - 01:26:54:03
really cool to me about Dolby, in general, is that we're
not just talking about Dolby Cinema or TVs

01:26:54:03 - 01:26:59:23
at home now, we're in, you know, iPhones, tablets,
laptops, computer monitors. I mean, we have

01:27:00:10 - 01:27:05:20
displays of into cars that are Dolby Vision enabled,
which is mind blowing to me. So I think

01:27:05:20 - 01:27:11:01
that makes it really tricky as well, right? Because not
only are you introducing the variability in the

01:27:11:01 - 01:27:15:09
technology, but also the environment. And then, you
know, you have issues like ambient light, you

01:27:15:09 - 01:27:20:05
know, viewing distance angles, like, you know, you could
go down a rabbit hole very quickly with what

01:27:20:05 - 01:27:24:19
makes this stuff difficult. So that's why like, when
I do my evaluations, I love when I get the

01:27:24:19 - 01:27:27:26
reference monitors in, because I'm like, this is easy,
like, these are great. This is very simple,

01:27:27:29 - 01:27:34:21
like more cut and dry than some of the other types. But
also, you know, there's applications outside

01:27:34:21 - 01:27:39:18
of the specs, like I was saying, right? So, you know,
a great, you know, TV might not make a good,

01:27:39:27 - 01:27:44:15
you know, display to use on set or things like that.
There's things like, there's so many

01:27:44:15 - 01:27:49:10
different applications, whether it's for VFX, you
know, first color, even something like a GUI

01:27:49:10 - 01:27:53:08
monitor, or, you know, monitor and on set, like, they
all require different, you know, physical

01:27:53:11 - 01:27:58:14
capabilities and image quality parameters. So long-winded
answer to your question is it's really

01:27:58:14 - 01:28:06:25
tough. So that kind of brings me to the general idea
of, you know, when you look at a display,

01:28:07:18 - 01:28:13:14
or especially a consumer TV, you know, you go to the
store, you buy one, it's got a little Dolby

01:28:13:14 - 01:28:20:11
Vision badge on it. What does that actually mean on the
back end? What are you getting as a consumer

01:28:20:13 - 01:28:28:04
when you buy a television that has the official Dolby
Vision badge and certification on it?

01:28:28:27 - 01:28:32:07
Yeah, that's a great question. And again, another
common one we get all the time. So

01:28:33:01 - 01:28:39:05
there's a big misconception that Dolby somehow, like,
was instrumental in helping create or

01:28:39:05 - 01:28:44:13
manufacture these specific displays. That's not the
case. So whenever you go into any sort of

01:28:44:13 - 01:28:48:19
retail space that sells, you know, TVs, or whether
it be a desktop monitor, things like that,

01:28:48:23 - 01:28:53:21
if you see a Dolby Vision logo on the box, all that means
is that display has the capability to decode

01:28:53:27 - 01:28:59:15
and do the display mapping required by a Dolby Vision
encoded signal. So if you pull up a Dolby

01:28:59:15 - 01:29:06:05
Vision TV and you start up your Netflix, Disney+,
whatever OTT service that supports Vision,

01:29:06:21 - 01:29:10:16
and that specific piece of content was mastered in
Dolby Vision, and you have the, you know,

01:29:10:16 - 01:29:14:25
the according subscription model or whatever you
need, that will play back on Dolby Vision.

01:29:14:26 - 01:29:22:26
And it will automatically trigger that display's Dolby
Vision mode. So it'll automatically flag it

01:29:23:03 - 01:29:27:28
on the signal, the TV will flip into, typically
speaking, it's the Dolby Vision

01:29:28:17 - 01:29:33:24
bright mode, as it's called on most TVs. You can
also then change, there's things like

01:29:34:09 - 01:29:38:11
Dolby Vision dark, Dolby Vision bright, we have
game modes, vivid modes, etc, for various

01:29:38:14 - 01:29:43:02
different models. So typically speaking, the bright
mode is always the default out of the box.

01:29:43:16 - 01:29:48:03
And that's just because we're assuming that the average
living room is not as well controlled,

01:29:48:11 - 01:29:55:00
maybe likewise as a grading suite. Yeah. So, you know,
staying in the consumer world for a little

01:29:55:00 - 01:30:02:11
bit, how do you feel, you know, in terms of the adoption
and accessibility of HDR, both content

01:30:02:11 - 01:30:12:00
and monitoring is these days? Because I think, you
know, just a few years ago, HDR was really, really

01:30:13:00 - 01:30:17:24
God, we keep saying everything is niche in this
episode, but it kind of was, right?

01:30:17:24 - 01:30:23:13
I think, no, I think you're right. I think a few years ago it seemed, and we talked about this in

01:30:23:13 - 01:30:27:26
the episode, both episodes that we did with Bram and
Nate previously, I think that, you know, for

01:30:27:26 - 01:30:33:04
a while, you know, HDR was a little bit of a country
club ecosystem, right? It was happening

01:30:33:04 - 01:30:38:09
at the highest end, at the highest productions, etc.
And now that that's trickled down, right?

01:30:38:10 - 01:30:45:04
I think that people are... A big, big, big part of this, in my opinion, is when Apple decided to make

01:30:45:08 - 01:30:52:08
all their iPhones, take photos and videos and display
photos and videos in HDR by default,

01:30:52:08 - 01:30:59:06
right? Now you have an entire swath of the consumer
landscape doing their everyday day-to-day

01:30:59:06 - 01:31:03:27
interaction with the device. And now they're seeing
HDR where they weren't seeing HDR before.

01:31:04:15 - 01:31:08:06
And they just kind of, they don't know, you know,
the average user might not know, hey,

01:31:08:13 - 01:31:13:16
I shot this photo on my iPhone in HDR and I'm looking
at it in HDR and it looks really good.

01:31:14:06 - 01:31:18:12
They just know that if I have my iPhone and I take
a picture with it, it looks better now.

01:31:18:25 - 01:31:23:16
And if somebody else with an iPhone sends me a picture
that they took, it looks better on this

01:31:23:16 - 01:31:30:24
display. Is that something that is actually, tangibly
kind of improving and moving the industry

01:31:30:27 - 01:31:36:20
forward, kind of having these manufacturers, you
know, really put more HDR into everything?

01:31:37:22 - 01:31:42:12
Are people adopting HDR more now than
they have before? Or is it still

01:31:43:03 - 01:31:47:10
kind of that niche, nerdy thing for us display geeks?

01:31:48:15 - 01:31:53:28
No, that's a good question. And I think the, the good
thing is, is that I think you're correct in

01:31:53:28 - 01:31:57:24
the sense that from my point of view, and you know,
you talked to most folks at Dolby would

01:31:58:24 - 01:32:04:04
unanimously agree that HDR is as accessible as it's
ever been. And a big proponent of that,

01:32:04:04 - 01:32:09:13
like you mentioned is the Apple ecosystem. Obviously
they have the scale and the just raw

01:32:09:13 - 01:32:13:17
numbers to support something like this, right? Just
to give kind of like a side anecdote,

01:32:13:29 - 01:32:18:17
a lot of the trainings I start, especially when
I'm doing trainings for folks that are

01:32:18:20 - 01:32:24:23
maybe newer to HDR, not as well versed to think of
like universities, education partners, things

01:32:24:23 - 01:32:29:15
like that. Whenever I'm in person, I like to do one
of the first questions I'll ask is like, Hey,

01:32:29:21 - 01:32:34:08
who here has, you know, knowingly watched any sort
of Dolby vision or gone to like a Dolby

01:32:34:08 - 01:32:38:12
Cinema? And if you have like a 50 person class, you
usually get, you know, a handful of hands,

01:32:38:14 - 01:32:43:02
right? And I'll say like, okay, who has an iPhone 10
or later? And then, you know, like 75% of the

01:32:43:02 - 01:32:46:28
class raises their hand. And I'm like, any of you guys
ever watch like your streaming services on

01:32:46:28 - 01:32:49:28
there? And you know, everybody, you know, keeps their
hand up. I'm like, okay, so without even

01:32:50:00 - 01:32:55:29
knowing it, you've been watching HDR, Dolby Vision
for years now, right? And this is even,

01:32:56:02 - 01:33:00:10
you know, permeating into things like social media.
I mean, we have a ton of ton of influence

01:33:00:14 - 01:33:06:11
going on in that space. And we're seeing the numbers
there. I mean, we have a lot of social

01:33:06:11 - 01:33:11:07
media platforms overseas launching HDR and Vision capabilities. I mean, YouTube, you can even upload

01:33:11:12 - 01:33:16:23
on HDR and YouTube now. So like, there's a lot of
cool momentum there. But to your point,

01:33:16:23 - 01:33:20:21
Joey, I think that the thing we're seeing is that while
it's accessible, I don't think a lot of

01:33:20:21 - 01:33:25:21
people really know that they're watching it, right? Or
they're, is that a, is that a, is that a bad

01:33:25:22 - 01:33:30:16
thing? Yeah, I was going to say, kind of success of, you know, like if the technology means seamless,

01:33:30:16 - 01:33:34:28
right? Instead of making somebody to think about it,
they're just getting, they go and they go,

01:33:34:28 - 01:33:38:24
oh, I got this Dolby Vision TV. I'm getting better,
better results. That seems like a win too.

01:33:39:08 - 01:33:45:01
So when do we get to, if you had to put your crystal
ball, when do we get to the ideal,

01:33:45:02 - 01:33:53:01
my ideal world of HDR is just the default. And we're
kind of looking at SDR like we look at 4x3 safe

01:33:53:01 - 01:33:57:17
by three safe. That's a really good question. I'd be
curious to hear Bram and David's answers to that.

01:33:57:17 - 01:34:02:00
But I would say we're at least still another like five
years out. I think there's a lot of hesitation

01:34:02:11 - 01:34:08:20
in kind of the legacy creative community as well. I
know, especially onset is an issue that we've

01:34:08:20 - 01:34:12:16
seen in the past. And we've tried to address that
pretty directly at Dolby with a lot of our

01:34:12:24 - 01:34:17:04
newer education initiatives and helping folks better
understand how to manage HDR on set too.

01:34:17:12 - 01:34:22:02
But I think the good news is, is that again, as the
displays become more accessible, the price

01:34:22:02 - 01:34:27:11
barrier to get into HDR on set and during, you know, content
acquisition has come down quite a bit too.

01:34:27:11 - 01:34:32:27
And I've heard a lot of, you know, pretty high up DPs
saying like, you can't really use the budget

01:34:32:27 - 01:34:36:12
excuse anymore. Like this is something that you should
be considering. But I think that also

01:34:36:12 - 01:34:41:22
requires like a pretty big overhaul on education as
well. Right. I mean, you get into any of these

01:34:42:26 - 01:34:48:04
top echelon of film schools in the US and even overseas,
like, you know, they're teaching SDR

01:34:48:04 - 01:34:52:06
predominantly still, right. And that needs to change
to enable the next generation of content

01:34:52:06 - 01:34:57:21
creators, right. But I think having accessibility on
iPhones and social media, being able to do it

01:34:58:07 - 01:35:01:07
certainly helps. I don't know if Bram or
Dave wants to speak to that too.

01:35:01:15 - 01:35:06:17
Well, I have one more thing to add just to before we move on to chatting with David. And I think

01:35:06:17 - 01:35:11:24
this is kind of a question about the intersection of
Bram's, you know, sphere and your sphere,

01:35:11:27 - 01:35:17:20
right. Bram, like the work that Dolby does as sort
of a, I think of Dolby often as like,

01:35:17:20 - 01:35:23:12
as a research company, but they're sort of like a
almost like pseudo standards body, right.

01:35:23:12 - 01:35:26:10
Because they're doing all this R&D. I mean, they're
not a standards body, but you know what I'm

01:35:26:10 - 01:35:31:00
saying? Like they do all this R&D, they're having the
high level meetings with SMPTE, ITU, etc.

01:35:31:18 - 01:35:37:11
I guess my question is the work that that Dolby does,
Nate does, etc. How much does that inform,

01:35:38:05 - 01:35:42:23
you know, kind of like some of the things that you guys
do on your end, the choices that you make,

01:35:42:23 - 01:35:47:05
the standards that you're adhering to that kind of stuff.
Because I think that like, as Joey pointed

01:35:47:05 - 01:35:51:06
out with Dolby, it's like, okay, cool. Like they put
their badge on something, get some licensing

01:35:51:08 - 01:35:57:25
fees and move on. But it seems to me for a company like
yours, there's a lot more value behind the

01:35:57:25 - 01:36:01:08
scenes happening with something that Dolby is doing,
like that work that Dolby is doing, right?

01:36:01:13 - 01:36:07:20
Is that a fair assessment? Yeah, 100%. I mean, what
we do is, you know, we look, we do look to

01:36:07:20 - 01:36:13:09
and lean on Dolby a lot for guidance on what would
be a best practice, you know, what design

01:36:13:09 - 01:36:20:01
objectives we should be trying to strive for. And, you
know, I interface with Nate a ton, I think

01:36:20:01 - 01:36:25:23
Nate and I probably speak every month or two, just
catch up about everything in the industry and

01:36:26:07 - 01:36:30:22
try to learn about what, you know, Dolby is working on,
what Dolby's interests are, how we can better

01:36:30:22 - 01:36:35:19
facilitate, you know, content creators trying to make
Dolby vision. And I think the answer to Joey's

01:36:35:21 - 01:36:41:10
earlier question in terms of when does it become the
default? I think we can safely say that HDR

01:36:41:15 - 01:36:48:27
will be the default when it's no longer a premium add-on
for most of the streaming services. So I

01:36:48:27 - 01:36:55:01
think when you sign up for a service and the price
is just the default gives you HDR

01:36:55:05 - 01:36:57:16
That extra six bucks a month or whatever.
Yeah, yeah.

01:36:57:25 - 01:37:00:23
Exactly. That's when we'll be there. And I think
that's going to happen. That's going to be,

01:37:00:24 - 01:37:04:15
it's going to be one of these things where people
are like, of course it needs to be HDR.

01:37:05:10 - 01:37:10:07
So we're not quite there yet, but I think we're making
huge strides in that direction. And yeah,

01:37:10:07 - 01:37:15:13
like I said, we do lean a lot on Dolby's guidance there
and try to cater to, you know, what they

01:37:15:13 - 01:37:19:07
see as the pain points in the industry as well within
the, you know, limits of what display

01:37:19:07 - 01:37:23:27
technology can do. But yeah, we look to them
a lot for advice and guidance.

01:37:24:08 - 01:37:29:21
Very cool. Well, David, you have been sitting there
so patiently waiting for us to chat.

01:37:30:00 - 01:37:37:00
Thank you for that. I have to say, David, we did a,
Joey and I did a like overview of calibration

01:37:37:03 - 01:37:41:19
episode a couple of weeks ago and we released it out
there and all I could think was recording

01:37:41:23 - 01:37:46:10
when we were recording with, was that hopefully you
weren't going to, it wasn't going to land

01:37:46:10 - 01:37:51:24
anywhere on your desk and you weren't going to see
it. Right. I was operating from a place of

01:37:51:27 - 01:37:59:14
fear out of this because I have to be honest with
you. You are a, I don't know. I mean,

01:37:59:16 - 01:38:03:25
all of you guys are, but I also, I consider you to be
an industry giant, right? And it's just one

01:38:03:25 - 01:38:08:11
of those things where it's just sort of like, okay, don't
say anything wrong. Don't get corrected by

01:38:08:11 - 01:38:14:14
David. Anybody who knows you realizes that you're just
the sweetest guy and that's not your M.O. in

01:38:14:14 - 01:38:20:09
general. But I will say that we're really excited to
have you on here because I think we could,

01:38:20:15 - 01:38:25:00
we, and we definitely need to do this again with you
revisit our calibration episode because it's

01:38:25:00 - 01:38:30:23
such a deep and complex topic and you're one of the
experts. So again, appreciate your patience,

01:38:30:23 - 01:38:35:18
but I have some questions for you if you're willing.
So I wanted to start out with you

01:38:35:24 - 01:38:43:15
sort of this idea of kind of the consumer versus professional landscape when it comes to calibration.

01:38:43:25 - 01:38:50:20
Right. So like, you know, I think that in my
perspective, what's exciting is that

01:38:50:28 - 01:38:56:16
TVs are getting better, right? That the performance of
TVs are vastly improved. And more importantly,

01:38:57:12 - 01:39:02:25
so many more consumers are aware of kind of the
idea of how calibration can improve

01:39:03:08 - 01:39:08:19
their general investment, you know, in their TV to get
it looking its best. But I wanted to start

01:39:08:19 - 01:39:13:02
out by like this idea between professional and consumer,
like when it comes to calibration and

01:39:13:02 - 01:39:18:01
the quality of this displays, having seen 25,000
or how many of you have calibrated,

01:39:18:19 - 01:39:24:17
is that a tangible difference in terms of accuracy
and quality between the consumer

01:39:24:18 - 01:39:29:03
market, high end consumer market, even let's say, and
in the professional world, are you literally

01:39:29:11 - 01:39:35:11
getting something that's more accurate if you buy a
quote unquote professional display versus a

01:39:35:11 - 01:39:41:15
consumer display, if that makes sense? Well, first off, thank you for having me. And I am honored to

01:39:41:16 - 01:39:50:15
be your third guest ever. Yeah, it's amazing.
In terms of the calibration of displays,

01:39:51:22 - 01:39:57:21
I think a lot of that comes down to, you know, the target
audience, right? And then the budgets that

01:39:57:21 - 01:40:02:03
we have. So when you look at a consumer TV manufacturer,
there's only so much time they can

01:40:02:03 - 01:40:06:04
put towards calibrating that display on the assembly
line, right? Right. Going through that factory,

01:40:06:04 - 01:40:09:25
because the longer they have it on that line, the less
they're getting through, the higher the costs

01:40:09:27 - 01:40:15:00
go up. And when you look at broadcast monitors in the
professional market, you know, people like

01:40:15:00 - 01:40:18:22
FSI, they have a lot more time, right? They can put
a little more time into them. Of course,

01:40:18:22 - 01:40:22:22
we also see those costs go up, right? You know, you
might be paying, I don't know, Bram, what is

01:40:22:22 - 01:40:29:23
it $12,000 for an XMP310? Are you going to pay $12,000
for a 32 inch monitor in the consumer

01:40:29:23 - 01:40:33:29
space? You're probably not going to be paying that
kind of money, but Bram's able to maybe do a

01:40:34:05 - 01:40:37:24
better factory calibration, because he'll put a little
more time and energy into that. So we do

01:40:37:24 - 01:40:45:03
see on the pro side, most manufacturers putting in
more time and energy into making sure they're

01:40:45:03 - 01:40:51:12
getting a display to their customer that has a higher
level of accuracy. The question we always

01:40:51:12 - 01:40:56:06
have, and Bram and I talk about this all the time, is
just because you got a display from even FSI

01:40:56:21 - 01:41:02:04
doesn't mean it's set up right. And what I mean by that
is it comes in one mode, right? It comes in,

01:41:02:04 - 01:41:07:25
let's say 709. You can't just plug it in and
start grading P3. You have to go in the menu,

01:41:07:25 - 01:41:12:27
you have to change it to what you're working in.
And so that's something that if you bring a

01:41:12:27 - 01:41:17:14
calibrator out to your facility, we'll usually say,
what's the mode you're working in? How's your

01:41:17:14 - 01:41:22:29
system set up? Oh, you're in full range. Let me make
sure this monitor is in full range, right?

01:41:23:16 - 01:41:27:27
So you can get a monitor from a manufacturer that might
be very well calibrated. You still have to

01:41:27:27 - 01:41:31:26
know how to use it. And that's very, very important because
it doesn't matter how perfect your monitor

01:41:31:27 - 01:41:38:07
is calibrated if it's not in parity with the signal
you're sending. That ruins the whole thing.

01:41:38:17 - 01:41:42:17
So we see that. On the consumer side, we do
see things getting better. We see

01:41:42:25 - 01:41:49:08
displays getting more predictable. We see technology
getting more stable. And so we do

01:41:49:08 - 01:41:54:01
start to see things coming off the assembly line
a little bit better. And for AviCal with my

01:41:54:01 - 01:41:58:07
calibration hat on, that's not the best thing for an
independent calibrator saying, hey, they're

01:41:58:08 - 01:42:02:12
getting better off the line. Don't worry, they're not
perfect yet. There's still improvement to be

01:42:02:12 - 01:42:07:09
made. Okay. He's like, don't worry, that's calibrating
run. But for Portrait, it's actually

01:42:07:09 - 01:42:10:23
good because we actually make some of the technology
now being used in several factories.

01:42:10:23 - 01:42:12:05
By those CD manufacturers. Sure.

01:42:12:13 - 01:42:16:23
So Portrait is actually working with TV manufacturers
on the line to apply some of our technologies

01:42:16:26 - 01:42:20:04
there. So it's good for Portrait that we're starting
to get from the line, the independent

01:42:20:05 - 01:42:24:09
calibrator. I still think it's good. I still think there's
enough for the independent calibrator out

01:42:24:10 - 01:42:30:01
there to make improvement that's noticeable. So David,
I think one of the next questions I have

01:42:30:01 - 01:42:33:06
is just sort of the complexity of calibration. I
know when I got started, and it's something

01:42:33:06 - 01:42:37:28
I've spoken to Bram about in the past, is that
if you're not doing this every single day,

01:42:38:15 - 01:42:43:20
the software, the tools, et cetera, can be complicated,
can be intimidating. From your

01:42:43:20 - 01:42:49:17
perspective, the state of calibration these days, is
it still difficult? Is it something that's

01:42:49:19 - 01:42:55:05
accessible to colorists like me or to an end user?
Where does that sit? Because it seems like

01:42:55:16 - 01:43:00:12
more and more people are aware anyway of the
benefits of calibration and its need,

01:43:00:23 - 01:43:05:06
but that doesn't necessarily mean they're taking it
on themselves. Where is that sit kind of now

01:43:06:09 - 01:43:11:10
with modern tools and modern software?
I think calibration has gotten

01:43:13:18 - 01:43:18:15
more difficult and at the same time easier in a lot
of ways. It's kind of hard to explain. So

01:43:18:17 - 01:43:25:28
when I started calibrating, it was CRTs. We would even
open up the CRT and take the glare screen off.

01:43:27:01 - 01:43:30:02
You had the Fresnel linticular, and you had the
glare screen. You take the glare screen off,

01:43:30:02 - 01:43:34:06
so you could have that matte finish. You wouldn't have
this huge reflection because 25 years ago,

01:43:34:06 - 01:43:40:07
those were pretty obtrusive glare screens. They're not
like some of what we have today with modern

01:43:40:07 - 01:43:47:10
displays. We'd turn the trim pots and we'd maybe do
focus on the CRTs and then spend hours doing

01:43:47:10 - 01:43:52:06
convergence. You might have convergence for all these
memories. So you have a lot of physical

01:43:52:09 - 01:43:57:19
stuff that happened years ago, but you only had so
many adjustments when it came to dialing,

01:43:57:19 - 01:44:02:12
let's say your grayscale, and you might have had cuts
and gains. You might have only had choose a

01:44:02:12 - 01:44:08:18
gamma. There was no tracking any EOTF or doing a 1D
lookup table. I feel like in those days,

01:44:08:18 - 01:44:13:22
they fought each other a lot more. You change
pedestal and then everything else

01:44:14:04 - 01:44:20:07
needs to be. It's a lot more dialing one thing in and
then dialing another thing back to compensate.

01:44:21:05 - 01:44:27:19
Absolutely. So you go back and forth and you'd have
very few actual controls of the image

01:44:29:04 - 01:44:32:20
compared to today, but you'd have a lot of physical
stuff you could do that would really,

01:44:32:20 - 01:44:36:26
really improve the image. That combined into a really
great image when you were done calibrating

01:44:36:26 - 01:44:41:14
today, there's almost no physical adjustments on a
lot of these flat panels. You have physical

01:44:41:15 - 01:44:45:13
adjustments on projectors, but you don't really have
it on these flat panels, but now you have

01:44:45:13 - 01:44:52:19
very complicated image processing paths where you can
do 1D lookup tables, 3D lookup tables. You can

01:44:52:19 - 01:44:59:20
do different EOTF tracking. There's just so much you
can do. And then you add into the complexity

01:44:59:22 - 01:45:05:15
back then, it was really one calibration you were doing,
whether that was for SMPTE-C or BT-709. Now,

01:45:06:02 - 01:45:11:09
you're calibrating for SDR, HDR, and often Dolby
Vision. So now you have three calibrations

01:45:11:20 - 01:45:16:23
in that one calibration session and that just makes
the complexity that is at another level. Now,

01:45:17:05 - 01:45:23:15
we also didn't have software like CalMAN, 20 years ago,
because 20 years ago CalMAN came out and we're

01:45:23:15 - 01:45:29:04
celebrating our 20th anniversary this year. But 22 years
ago, we didn't have CalMAN to make things

01:45:29:04 - 01:45:34:02
easy. So now with the software that we have and the
software tools that are out there in the

01:45:34:02 - 01:45:40:00
marketplace, it is much easier to quantify a display,
understand what the display is doing,

01:45:40:00 - 01:45:46:03
and make those decisions. And they can help guide you
through that process to success. So even though

01:45:46:03 - 01:45:51:26
they've gotten more complicated from a display adjustment
standpoint and an image processing

01:45:51:26 - 01:45:57:19
standpoint, the software has tried to keep up with
helping users achieve their success with that

01:45:57:19 - 01:46:01:24
calibration process. Yeah, I think that makes sense. Yeah, I think it's getting easier. I think

01:46:01:25 - 01:46:06:00
we're getting easier and we're going to keep trying
to make it easier over time. So another

01:46:06:02 - 01:46:12:12
thing that pops to mind is when it comes to calibration
is that I think like anything else,

01:46:12:12 - 01:46:16:29
there seems to be levels to this. I mean, just take
a look at some of the hardware. There's

01:46:17:08 - 01:46:23:00
go to the old Apple store and buy a little relatively
cheap colorimeter, put it on the monitor,

01:46:23:10 - 01:46:30:06
you're Bob's your uncle, but then there's $10,000,
$20,000 displays. How important is the

01:46:30:26 - 01:46:37:29
level or quality of gear, specifically when it
comes to meters, and pattern generators,

01:46:37:29 - 01:46:42:29
the hardware aspect of this for achieving success.
I think a lot of people, I know

01:46:43:03 - 01:46:48:05
Joey and I talked to a ton of colorists that go, "Yeah,
cool. I know calibration is important,

01:46:48:05 - 01:46:54:03
but it's not $20,000 important to me." Are there good
results that can be had somewhere in the

01:46:54:03 - 01:46:57:23
middle? Speak to that a little bit because it seems
like there's just a lot of variability

01:46:58:07 - 01:47:02:28
in terms of cost and functionality when
it comes to some of this gear.

01:47:04:05 - 01:47:10:21
Yeah. So this is the question the geeks get into, which
is the how accurate is accurate enough.

01:47:11:25 - 01:47:19:09
And as you go up in equipment capability, when you get
into somebody's higher and laboratory grade

01:47:19:20 - 01:47:27:09
colorimeters and spectroradiometers, you get a higher
level of precision in those measurements.

01:47:27:18 - 01:47:32:10
You get a higher level of repeatability precision, you
get a little more confidence that what you're

01:47:32:10 - 01:47:36:08
measuring is going to be accurate based on maybe
it has a two nanometer bandwidth on a

01:47:36:08 - 01:47:43:01
spectro versus a 10 nanometer bandwidth on a different
spectro. But a colorimeter and even

01:47:43:01 - 01:47:49:03
a low cost device can be quite accurate if it's profiled,
what we call profiled or has a correction

01:47:49:06 - 01:47:55:21
table for that specific display. So we're starting to
see more of that happen at Portrait, where we

01:47:55:22 - 01:48:02:23
have our C6 HDR 5000 colorimeter, and we have a lab
now that we build profiles for it for our

01:48:02:23 - 01:48:08:25
customers for CalMAN in there. So if you have a profile,
you can get a really good result in

01:48:08:25 - 01:48:14:13
comparison to say, a 20, 30, $40,000 spectroradiometer.
If you don't have a profile, you're going

01:48:14:13 - 01:48:19:04
to have a little more error in that reading, right?
And how much that's going to be is going to be

01:48:19:04 - 01:48:25:19
dependent on how far off the profile you're using is.
So you could have a generic WRGB OLED profile,

01:48:25:29 - 01:48:31:06
might be really great on Model A, but Model B has a
different type of panel, maybe it's an MLA panel,

01:48:31:21 - 01:48:35:16
and you're going to have a larger error because you're
using a profile from one for another.

01:48:36:21 - 01:48:40:29
Once you get that calibration of the probe out
of the way, then it starts to become

01:48:40:29 - 01:48:46:16
down what's the capability of the probe itself. So
if you're working on a monitor that says,

01:48:46:24 - 01:48:52:12
say has a really great black level, Quantum Dot OLED,
WRGB OLED, the JOLED panels we saw

01:48:52:27 - 01:49:00:24
on some of the monitors, like the LG 32EP950, those
go pretty darn close to black, if not perfect

01:49:00:24 - 01:49:06:21
black. And if you're trying to calibrate a 1D lookup
table, how low can you measure with your

01:49:06:21 - 01:49:12:08
meter and get a reliable reading? And that starts to become
really important with these. So if you're

01:49:12:08 - 01:49:17:24
calibrating a monitor that only has gains and bias, maybe
you don't care that you can't measure 0.05

01:49:18:00 - 01:49:23:06
nits because you can't adjust it. If you can't adjust
it, you might not care. But if you can

01:49:23:06 - 01:49:27:24
adjust it, and then you're using that probe and you
just can't measure accurately down there,

01:49:27:24 - 01:49:32:11
well, you're going to increase your error. So I guess
to answer the question, I think there's

01:49:32:14 - 01:49:37:03
some really great low cost colorimeters on the market.
And if you know the limitations of those

01:49:37:03 - 01:49:41:22
products, if you know what they can do and what you
might be fighting against in terms of getting

01:49:41:22 - 01:49:46:12
that ultimate accuracy, they're just fine. And
then if you want to go up that next level

01:49:46:22 - 01:49:51:22
to those higher end probes, you just get that
confidence. It's that confidence

01:49:51:22 - 01:49:55:12
gain Bram was telling you about, you're going to get
that confidence that, hey, I know I've got

01:49:55:12 - 01:50:00:26
a probe, it's lab grade, it's right, I can measure
anything with this. I'm going to get the same

01:50:00:26 - 01:50:05:19
result. So I mean, we often think about calibration as like the truth, right? So like that makes a lot

01:50:05:19 - 01:50:09:28
of sense that sort of the more accurate you can be,
the more truth that you're seeing. I guess

01:50:10:03 - 01:50:16:14
the question sort of a part B to that is like, is
that difference between using the higher end

01:50:16:14 - 01:50:24:12
gear and entry level gear, is it enough to be a noticeable
difference to the person looking at

01:50:24:12 - 01:50:30:06
that monitor? Or is this the case of, no, we're getting
this prettier, nicer graphs kind of thing,

01:50:30:23 - 01:50:35:20
but visually it doesn't really matter. I think a lot
of people debate that whether it's something

01:50:35:20 - 01:50:39:22
they can do. Robbie loves to chase pretty calibration
graphs. I do like a pretty graph.

01:50:39:23 - 01:50:47:06
That is for sure. That is for sure. Dave and I have
used, I think for as long as we've known each

01:50:47:06 - 01:50:54:06
other is degrees of accuracy. Accuracy is not a binary thing - accurate or inaccurate thing when it comes to

01:50:54:06 - 01:50:58:25
calibration. It's all about degrees of accuracy. And
that is a sliding scale with a lot of steps.

01:50:59:18 - 01:51:03:22
No, I agree with that Bram. I think that,
you know, for a user like me who's,

01:51:03:22 - 01:51:10:02
who admittedly has a level of OCD that a lot of people
don't have, I am, you know, I can't tell

01:51:10:02 - 01:51:14:00
you how many times I've had conversations with Bram,
sometimes very late at night being like,

01:51:14:10 - 01:51:19:20
all right, man, well, I'm nervous because 0.7 seems
high versus 0.6. I'd really like it to be 0.6,

01:51:19:20 - 01:51:25:02
you know, that kind of thing. And he walks me off
and off a ledge. But I think that, you know,

01:51:25:02 - 01:51:29:10
that's, that's a consideration that people have. Like,
if I'm going to invest all that much money,

01:51:29:10 - 01:51:35:16
am I really getting something that's tangibly different
in terms of what I'm seeing on the

01:51:35:16 - 01:51:41:15
display? It comes down to, again, I think what you're trying to do with it, right? So if I try

01:51:41:15 - 01:51:46:19
to take a lower cost colorimeter and I calibrate an
LG OLED, for example, and I've done this,

01:51:46:19 - 01:51:51:17
I've actually done this myself to see the same difference
you're talking about. My coming out of

01:51:51:17 - 01:51:57:10
black on the LG OLED will be a little different than
if I take, say, my CR100 (Colorimeter) and I do it. And

01:51:57:12 - 01:52:02:01
I can see that if I look at a pattern, like if I
look at a shallow gray ramp, or I look at,

01:52:02:18 - 01:52:06:01
you know, maybe something really dark off like
Spears and Munsell (HDR Patterns). And I can say,

01:52:06:01 - 01:52:10:00
oh, look, I can see a little difference between
these two images. For a consumer,

01:52:11:10 - 01:52:19:05
how dramatic is that? Probably not super dramatic for
a colorist and a content creator that's, you

01:52:19:05 - 01:52:24:20
know, nitpicking every little thing. It's probably
going to be the end of the world.

01:52:24:22 - 01:52:29:26
Having worked with a lot of colorists, we'll see,
oh, the shadow doesn't quite match in this

01:52:29:26 - 01:52:35:13
scene from this monitor versus that monitor. And you
go, oh, well, I need to change this. But

01:52:35:23 - 01:52:42:00
we don't see many pro calibrators using some of these
lower end probes. And one of those things,

01:52:42:00 - 01:52:46:12
and this is something Bram and I have talked about
recently, and I'm tempted to just try and

01:52:47:04 - 01:52:52:16
get this new meter from Minolta that's super fast. And
what I was going to say is we don't see a lot

01:52:52:17 - 01:52:58:29
of pros using these probes if they're calibrating as
a service like Avical is, because they take a

01:52:58:29 - 01:53:04:03
long time, right? So when you spend more money, you
often get a little more sensitivity, a little

01:53:04:03 - 01:53:09:24
more speed, right? So your CR100, your Klein, your Minolta
CA-527, they're going to be a lot faster.

01:53:09:24 - 01:53:14:18
So you can achieve the calibration much quicker. And
so time starts to become money, but you're

01:53:14:18 - 01:53:19:28
not only getting that speed, you're also getting that
increase in precision from these devices.

01:53:20:05 - 01:53:24:20
So it's kind of a win-win if you're doing it as
a business to invest in that better gear

01:53:25:01 - 01:53:33:04
and get in, get out faster along with those better
results. So, you know, I think, I think,

01:53:33:04 - 01:53:37:04
again, if you're in that pro level, it's worth having
that consistency and that accuracy and

01:53:37:18 - 01:53:42:11
then what not from these higher probes. But if you're
in the consumer world, yeah, the lower cost

01:53:42:11 - 01:53:46:02
probes that are on the market are doing a great job.
And I think the most important thing for me

01:53:46:03 - 01:53:49:22
is making sure one, you have a meter profile for
the type of display you want to measure.

01:53:50:08 - 01:53:54:23
And two, making sure it's adequate for the display you
want to measure. You wouldn't buy a probe that

01:53:54:23 - 01:53:58:17
only does a thousand nits if you're trying to calibrate
a 3000-nit monitor. Yeah, obviously.

01:53:58:17 - 01:54:02:18
If you know you're building a LUT that goes near black, you want to make sure that your probe can

01:54:02:18 - 01:54:08:11
measure near black. And so those considerations start
to become less as you go up in the tiers,

01:54:08:11 - 01:54:11:26
because a lot of these higher end probes can measure
really wide dynamic ranges and you don't

01:54:11:27 - 01:54:17:29
have to think about it as much. And one last one
for you before we wrap up this part of our

01:54:17:29 - 01:54:24:01
discussion with you guys. I think one other question
is that, you know, so I buy a display

01:54:24:04 - 01:54:28:02
and it comes in and says, "Oh, hey, it's been calibrated
at the factory." So I'm trusting that

01:54:28:02 - 01:54:33:12
to a certain degree. But I think people know that, hey,
I live with the display for a year or so.

01:54:33:12 - 01:54:39:01
Like I need to recalibrate it. In your opinion,
like what's the recalibration process,

01:54:39:01 - 01:54:44:25
like the necessity of it, right? Like how often should
somebody be going, "Hey, I need to, you

01:54:44:25 - 01:54:49:28
know, validate or recalibrate this display." Can you
put a number on it? Is it every quarter? Is

01:54:49:28 - 01:54:56:01
it every, you know, six months? Like is there a time
demarcation or is it more of just, hey,

01:54:56:01 - 01:54:59:21
that's a personal preference. Do it whenever you
feel like doing it to reassure yourself.

01:55:01:05 - 01:55:04:13
This comes down sort of to the customer, right?
So we have customers that are

01:55:04:28 - 01:55:10:12
that are all over the place. When you think about a
home user, we have some customers that'll call

01:55:10:12 - 01:55:17:28
up a calibrator or recalibrate themselves every six
to 12 months. Realistically, at Avical,

01:55:17:28 - 01:55:21:24
I tell my customers about every 18 months if you're
a home user, they'll average you about three

01:55:21:24 - 01:55:26:16
hours a day, you know, figure they're putting on around
1500 hours. It's going to have drifted.

01:55:26:16 - 01:55:30:12
It has some aging. Let's bring that back in. When
you start getting to content creators,

01:55:31:01 - 01:55:37:01
you start looking at displays that are being used 40,
50, 60 hours a week. And so at that point,

01:55:37:01 - 01:55:41:26
it also comes down to are you using it 40 hours a week
in HDR or are you using it 40 hours a week

01:55:41:26 - 01:55:48:16
in SDR? Our general rule of thumb is about every six
months for a colorist and about once a year

01:55:48:16 - 01:55:53:23
for an editor. Yeah, the editor's model is going to
drift, but if they're not really doing serious

01:55:53:23 - 01:55:59:09
color timing and color grading at the end, then they
can let it drift a little longer if they want.

01:55:59:17 - 01:56:02:24
We did an experiment with the studio a few years
ago where we were coming out every quarter

01:56:03:17 - 01:56:08:11
for about a year and we were quantifying some broadcast
monitors and we were quantifying the

01:56:08:11 - 01:56:13:08
LG OLEDS that were on the wall. What we found was
the LGs were drifting in the quarter a little

01:56:13:08 - 01:56:17:26
more than the broadcast monitors, right? The broadcast
monitors were staying much more stable over that

01:56:17:26 - 01:56:22:06
amount of time. And what we came up with about every
six months is probably pretty good for this

01:56:22:06 - 01:56:27:04
particular studio where they're not really seeing
a difference in parity between the broadcast

01:56:27:05 - 01:56:33:19
Mars and the LG until about that six months point.
And the goal is, I stress this to all

01:56:33:19 - 01:56:39:29
your listeners, try to get ahead of it, right? The point
of recalibration, the point of making sure

01:56:39:29 - 01:56:44:21
you stay dialed in is so that you don't end up with
the fire drill. Because once the client

01:56:44:21 - 01:56:48:13
sees something and you start getting notes or you start
getting someone in your bay questioning,

01:56:48:13 - 01:56:53:02
then it becomes the fire drill and then it's, oh, we
need someone here right away and we need to go.

01:56:53:03 - 01:56:57:21
Oh yeah. And there's loss of, loss of, loss of
trust, like all sorts of issues involved.

01:56:58:07 - 01:57:02:12
Yeah. Yeah. So we try to keep up with our customers,
or at least at Avical, we try to

01:57:02:12 - 01:57:05:26
keep with our customers. Every six to eight months,
we'll send reminders out to our studio

01:57:05:28 - 01:57:10:09
customers and say, Hey, it's been about this long.
You know, are you interested in setting

01:57:10:09 - 01:57:15:17
up a recalibration appointment? Some of them do
it like clockwork. Some of them wait until

01:57:15:20 - 01:57:19:09
the project's over. Maybe it's another season. We have
a lot of TV shows we work on where they'll

01:57:19:10 - 01:57:24:16
do it every season. And they'll just say, you know,
it's, it's good for the season. But again,

01:57:24:16 - 01:57:28:23
that six to eight months is usually pretty good for
a studio. And I'd say about every 18 months

01:57:28:23 - 01:57:34:18
to two years for consumers. Pretty, pretty decent for
most people. Awesome. Well, I think I have

01:57:34:18 - 01:57:38:22
some more questions, but I tell you what, let's hold
off on those additional questions for all

01:57:38:22 - 01:57:43:19
three of you for a part two, because we have a lot
more to ask you, a lot more to dive in,

01:57:43:29 - 01:57:48:01
but hopefully this gives everybody sort of a high
level overview of kind of how these sort of

01:57:48:03 - 01:57:53:03
disparate parts, you know, in these guys sort of
roles in the display industry kind of gel

01:57:53:03 - 01:57:57:20
together from display manufacturing to validation
and kind of standards to actually, you know,

01:57:57:20 - 01:58:01:04
the technical part of getting to make sure that these
displays are as accurate as possible with

01:58:01:04 - 01:58:06:24
calibration. Very cool stuff, guys, but hopefully you'll
stick with us for another part where we'll

01:58:06:26 - 01:58:11:07
fire some rapid fire questions off for you. As a reminder
for any of our viewers, you can always

01:58:11:07 - 01:58:11:25
fire some rapid fire questions off for you. As a reminder
for any of our viewers, you can always

01:58:11:25 - 01:58:16:02
head over to offsetpodcast.com and get some show notes.
We'll definitely have some show notes

01:58:16:02 - 01:58:21:04
for these episodes. You can always follow us on social
media on Instagram or Facebook. Just search

01:58:21:04 - 01:58:27:12
for The Offset Podcast and you can find us on all major
streaming platforms as well as YouTube. Just

01:58:27:12 - 01:58:32:29
search for The Offset Podcast. All right, so stay tuned
for a part two. Very big thanks to all three

01:58:32:29 - 01:58:38:14
of our guests for joining us on this episode, but we'll
be back in just a little bit for part two

01:58:38:14 - 01:58:44:02
and diving into more depth. So for The Offset Podcast,
I'm Robbie Carman. And I'm Joey D'Anna.

01:58:44:03 - 01:58:44:23
Thanks for listening.