EP032: When Is A Grade Done?

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:14
Robbie
Hey there and welcome to another episode of The Offset Podcast. And today we're talking about how to know when you're done with a grade. Stay tuned.

00:00:14:16 - 00:00:33:04
Joey
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00:00:33:06 - 00:00:42:02
Robbie
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Offset podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Robbie Carman. And with me, as always, is Joey D’Anna. Hey, Joey. How are you, man?

00:00:42:04 - 00:00:43:12
Joey
Hi, everyone.

00:00:43:14 - 00:01:02:12
Robbie
I'm Joey today. Well, first to actually, before we dive in, I want to apologize to all of our viewers for being a few days late on delivering this episode. I thought that it would be wise for me to completely tear apart this room and start over from scratch, wiring everything with the idea that, oh, yeah, sure, I'll be done in a weekend.

00:01:02:12 - 00:01:27:04
Robbie
Here we are, like ten days later. I'm still sort of 90% back together, so the delay of getting this episode out is 100% on me. I apologize to all of our viewers, but the good news is, I have consolidated, I guess three different racks down to one rack. I've rewired with the latest HDMI, SDI, the whole nine yards.

00:01:27:06 - 00:01:49:10
Robbie
So we'll have to. Joey, one of these days. We'll have to do a updated, room design, because, not having done this in a number of years, I've learned a lot, but I can also say I never want to get back under a desk ever again. I'm a little, as you say, a little sore, and, the knees hurt a little bit extra, today from, from all that running around.

00:01:49:10 - 00:02:08:05
Robbie
So it's there. But, this episode, we wanted to dive into talking a little bit about, I think a subject that, you know, we hear about every once in a while. But this actually, again, I don't know if you know this, but, Joey, this actually came from one of our audience members. Andres, he's based in South America.

00:02:08:05 - 00:02:25:10
Robbie
He didn't say where, and he just said, basically, I have a problem knowing when is the right time to present a grade. Should I be doing more to refine the grade before putting it in front of a client? And then he says, related. How do I know that I'm really done and we can put a button, on the project?

00:02:25:12 - 00:02:41:04
Robbie
And I thought this was a great subject because this is something that I struggle with sometimes, like how much more are you going to futz with something before you show a client? But then also, just like, you know, there's a comfort level that needs to be achieved by the colorist to know that, like, all right, well, I'm feeling good about this.

00:02:41:08 - 00:02:57:11
Robbie
I can let this out into the world. And so I kind of wanted to talk about that. And, you know, along the way we'll go down any tangents like we usually do. Of course, for all of you listening, watching, if you like the show, please follow us on Instagram and Facebook and wherever you find the show on various podcast platforms.

00:02:57:13 - 00:03:22:15
Robbie
Of course, you can always head over to offsetpodcast.com and follow the show there, get show notes and so on and so forth. I hard to believe this is, episode 32 or 33. We've we've done a bunch of, so, check out the library of, shows as well. All right. So, you know, my thing about this and why I always start on this question or the subject is color is a really subjective thing, right.

00:03:22:17 - 00:03:40:08
Robbie
So my done might be different than your done which might be different than the client's done. I mean we've all had we've all had clients we've sat there with and gone. Really. They like that. They think it's good. They think it's ready to print. Like what? And you're like, I'm just getting started. And then vice versa. We've had or.

00:03:40:08 - 00:03:51:13
Joey
Yeah, you have the opposite of the client that wants to change one pixel plus ten, then minus ten, then plus five, then minus five, etc., etc. in to infinity.

00:03:51:15 - 00:04:12:11
Robbie
Yeah. And I think when I think when I think about this, it's that old adage of, you know, no film or no project is ever really finished. It's just kind of abandoned. And that's kind of like really I everything we're going to talk about rest of today, that's kind of really how I feel about this, is that you can always revisit stuff and start, you know, pixel in it to death, right?

00:04:12:11 - 00:04:18:12
Robbie
And within with the idea of like, hey, I'm going to refine this. I'm going to find this. But it's a case of diminishing returns too, but more too.

00:04:18:13 - 00:04:46:00
Joey
And sometimes it's a case of more harm than good. You know, sometimes your first instinct or your early instincts or the client's early instincts are, you know, that gut reaction once you've experienced the project enough times, right? Your gut reactions are naturally not a gut initial reaction anymore, and you could be looking for problems that don't exist, or even creating problems where none were.

00:04:46:02 - 00:05:05:03
Robbie
Yeah, and I think, you know, related with something. We've talked about it in previous episodes, but it's worth reiterating here again, is that, you know, one of the one of the problems, I think, that a lot of colorists have, especially younger colorists who, are doing their best to really make the most robust, refined images they can.

00:05:05:05 - 00:05:29:03
Robbie
They don't really understand the idea of adaptation. And the longer that you look at something, the worse you're going to actually make it right. And I see this happened all the time where people like, you know, they don't even actually get done with the project because they're like, you know, they're hyper focusing on certain shots or what happens more often is they hyper focus on the number of shots, you know, and you can get those perfect in their mind.

00:05:29:07 - 00:05:55:23
Robbie
And then the rest of the film or the rest of the project suffers because it becomes a time management at that point. Right. So I think, you know, we'll talk about a little later today, but I think the, the idea of passes is an important thing to, in this discussion. But the, you know, knowing that this is hard and knowing that it's a subjective thing, I think the the very first thing we should talk about that I think will help on this is the importance of kind of like your pre grading goals.

00:05:56:03 - 00:06:15:08
Robbie
Right. And I think this can mean a few things. I think number one it can mean okay, what about the discussion that you had with the client about look and feel and that kind of stuff. It can mean things like analyzing references and discussing those references. It can be even stuff like you know, you testing color management pipelines on your side, right?

00:06:15:08 - 00:06:34:21
Robbie
Testing different lookup tables, testing, different levels of grain like that pre pre grade work and getting everybody on the same page I think goes a long way to getting to a place where like, yeah, we're in the ballpark. This is good I mean do you agree with that. I think that like the pre grain stuff is really important.

00:06:34:23 - 00:06:52:02
Joey
I've always said that that prep work is oftentimes as important or more important than the actual work. You know, when you paint something in real life with real paint, you spend ten times the amount of time preparing the surface before you actually lay the paint on.

00:06:52:02 - 00:06:53:17
Robbie
And yeah, yeah.

00:06:53:19 - 00:07:19:05
Joey
Yeah, that prep work in our field can take many forms, but they're all really important. One of them is figuring out color management and workflow because you don't want surprises halfway through, or running into a shot that breaks whatever pipeline you built for this project. So the amount of testing with the footage, making sure you have the conform right, and you're maybe you're accessing the right camera originals.

00:07:19:05 - 00:07:47:17
Joey
You know, I've had situations where a colorist will come to me, hey, why is my whole grade changing now? They open this project because maybe they were accidentally started half the project on proxies that had a different color space and didn't realize it. So having all your ducks in a row, both on a technical side, in terms of having workflow and color management figured out before you start your grade, but also on a creative side and knowing what the client likes, what the client expects.

00:07:47:19 - 00:08:08:10
Joey
Yeah, can just have huge dividends. When you get to the end of a project where you're trying to get this thing approved and out the door, and there's a bunch of different ways to kind of gauge the client's expectations, and it really depends on the project. Right? We've got clients that I've worked with forever. I know exactly what they want.

00:08:08:10 - 00:08:25:02
Joey
We don't need to do test grades. We don't need to do stills. They don't need to talk to me about references. They say, here's another spot. I come back at the end of the day. Here's the spot back. Give me any notes. You know there is no back and forth, because we've worked together long enough that the esthetic is already established.

00:08:25:02 - 00:08:45:08
Joey
I know what they like. They know kind of how I usually work. And unless there's some exception to that which they mentioned, we can just move the project through. Whereas if you've never worked with a client, it's really important to set those initial creative goals and say, hey, you know, what kind of esthetic are you looking for? Are there any references you want us to compare this to?

00:08:45:14 - 00:09:09:22
Joey
And maybe try to get a few shots or a few scenes? If it's a long form thing, kind of through an initial review and back and forth process, because the worst thing you can do is grade a really long form project, like a half hour show or an hour show in a specific style that you're really in love with, and it's the first time the client sees it and they're like, yeah, why is the whole thing great?

00:09:10:00 - 00:09:26:16
Robbie
And that's and that's the that's the bigger that's that's what I really mean about the great thing is because, like, you don't want to be in that situation at all. Like it's it's it's devastating for several reasons. It's devastating to your confidence that you know what you're doing. Right. It's devastating to the client because they're like, oh crap.

00:09:26:16 - 00:09:43:03
Robbie
Now we're way behind. Now we need to reinvent the wheel and that it bleeds confidence from the whole thing, whatever. And I do I do agree with you that there, you know, you have to gauge this a little bit, but let's just assume for a second it's somebody you've never worked with. Those discussions and that pre grade stuff really goes a long way.

00:09:43:03 - 00:09:56:18
Robbie
And I'll give you an example years ago and I'm not trying to pick on anybody. But this was just a it always stuck in my head because it's super, super funny. I had there was a student film. I was trying to do somebody a favor, a friend of mine who was a professor and was like, I got this really good, bright student.

00:09:56:18 - 00:10:10:06
Robbie
We do him a favor. I'm like, sure, well, I'll grade the film. And, you know, I went through this process. I was like, I'm going to talk to him, you know, do a kind of pre great interview, get some references from him. And so I'm like, hey, tell me a little bit about the film. He's telling me the story of the film and it's kind of cool.

00:10:10:06 - 00:10:31:04
Robbie
Whatever. I'm like okay. Like all right. So what do you have me references? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he, you know, sends me all of these. Roger Deakins shot, plates. Right. You know, ones like, you know, Skyfall, like that burning barn building in Skyfall. Right? And, like, all this kind of stuff, you know, sends me, I think, some Blade Runner examples of the stuff in Vegas where everything's neon orange.

00:10:31:04 - 00:10:52:05
Robbie
Right? And I'm like, cool. Right? And then the next question is cool. What did you shoot this on? Oh, we shot it on three GoPros. Right. So sometimes my point is that sometimes the reality of desire for look and feel is not actually in line with the technical part about it, either. Like we shot with three GoPros with no lights, right?

00:10:52:11 - 00:11:10:16
Robbie
That's clearly not Roger Deakins. That's what maybe it is. But you know, and achieving those looks. So I think part of this process in grade two is also to separate fact from fiction and to understand that, like, you know, it's a part of the process where you can try to you're evaluating the rough cut, you're evaluating the shot.

00:11:10:18 - 00:11:25:22
Robbie
Some of that goes into bidding and the financials, but a lot of it goes into having frank and honest and open discussions with the client about what they actually captured, what you can actually do with it. Right. Like if there's no lights, sorry, there's not a whole lot we can do. We're going to be doing a lot of noise reduction or whatever.

00:11:25:22 - 00:11:46:08
Robbie
Right. And having those discussions because as you said, you don't want to have that pop up later, but also I think it pays dividends to have those discussions because it makes the client makes allows clients to feel like you're engaged with them rather than just their project being part of the sausage factory, you know, if you're just like, cool, no questions will great it.

00:11:46:08 - 00:11:50:05
Robbie
We'll have it on Tuesday. Like, that's not collaborative, right? That's not getting them.

00:11:50:05 - 00:12:00:18
Joey
Invites clients always. I think, you know, not all clients like the same thing, but all clients appreciate honesty and taking ownership of project total total.

00:12:00:20 - 00:12:17:19
Robbie
So I think I think it varies depending on where you are with the client. But references some test grades. And just a note on test grades, we'll actually go ahead and budget time and a little bit of money for that, especially if it's like a longer form project that's going to be like if it's something that like, nope, just make it balance.

00:12:17:19 - 00:12:38:12
Robbie
Like whatever. Like we don't need to spend a lot of time on that. But if they're like, I'm envisioning this Wes Anderson type look like you're going to have to do some test grades, right? And, and try to figure out what that esthetic is, because honestly, what you might like for contrast might not be what the client likes, what you like for saturation and like, you know, sort of, you know, depth of colors they might not like.

00:12:38:15 - 00:12:53:22
Robbie
I've done sort of several projects where you know, even though I've done all that pre-production work, too. You know, it's not until they've actually seen something in that test grade that then they have the vocabulary to converse about it, you know.

00:12:54:00 - 00:13:14:15
Joey
Yeah. And I think it's really important. Back to the original subject of how do you know when you're happy with the grade? Yeah. You know, you need to depending on the client's esthetic and the client's wants and how they want it to look, you need to be able to, as a colorist, detach yourself from your own tastes sometimes.

00:13:14:15 - 00:13:26:00
Joey
Right. You need to get an understanding of the look that they're going for. It might not be something that you like. It might not be a style that you like. So if the question of.

00:13:26:01 - 00:13:27:11
Robbie
Green and yellow go.

00:13:27:13 - 00:13:43:19
Joey
You know. You know, if the question is how do you know when a grade is is perfect, you might not ever think that it's the right thing, but you need to understand the client's desires enough to say this is in line with what they wanted.

00:13:43:21 - 00:14:01:16
Robbie
Yeah. And I think at this preproduction sort of testing stage, like the, the, the, the line in the sand for me on that is because you're right. Like you might do something like, oh man, this doesn't look great, but it's what they want. It's it's more about learning the client's esthetic at that point in time. And that is a measure of success.

00:14:01:16 - 00:14:17:22
Robbie
So when you're sending them the test grades or even in the conversation, if you're saying the right things to them and they're reacting to, oh, yeah, that's what I mean. Or yeah, I love that look or I love this bit about it. But one more thing to keep in mind about this. It's also your job as the colors.

00:14:18:02 - 00:14:36:13
Robbie
You know, we joke all the time about the color, says the, post-production psychology. That's right. I think it's really our job to ask those probing questions a little bit deeper than you might think. Right. So like on, on the surface level, like, okay, how do you feel about contrast of this reference? Right. It's like one step deeper.

00:14:36:13 - 00:15:00:01
Robbie
It's like, okay, cool. Do you like the highlights how they roll off a little bit or like do you want them a little clippy or like the shadows like is are you okay with crushing some things every once in a while, or does every shadow detail need to be, you know, to be seen like those? A little bit more detailed stuff will get you a long way to where, when you're ready to present that first version of the film to them, there's no major surprises.

00:15:00:01 - 00:15:09:20
Robbie
And I think that's like, there's always going to be changes, right? But you're trying to avoid what you said earlier. The, this is not really what I envisioned. Conversation.

00:15:09:22 - 00:15:29:14
Joey
Yeah. We don't want a start over. We want incremental vision. And that kind of brings me to, you know, we've talked a little about kind of the theoretical side of this. Yeah. Let's talk about the nitty gritty of in your color session. How do you build up to from starting a project to being ready to show the client and then getting through the client review process?

00:15:29:14 - 00:16:06:23
Joey
And we mentioned it earlier, I'm going to mention it. We're going to mention it again and again and again in this episode. And probably every other episode we do that is the importance of working in passes. I think that working in passes and being able to kind of figure out the balance of how much to do every pass and how to optimize your time versus, you know, every shot versus the entire piece is probably the single most important workflow concept that is going to go into getting a good finished product as opposed to a good one shot.

00:16:07:01 - 00:16:28:10
Robbie
Yeah, let's let's dive into that because I think it's it's great. And I want to give credit where credit's due, because I think I had always sort of worked in passes, but the best I've ever heard this articulated, was, at this point is probably ten years ago, I was doing a presentation at NAB, and, Andrea Clay back, who is a fantastic, colorist.

00:16:28:12 - 00:16:47:22
Robbie
She's now at Harbor Picture Company in LA. And at the time, she was doing a lot of Neill Blomkamp, films. She'd done, Elysium. I think she did Chappie as well. And she was talking she had in her presentation, she was talking about this very thing, and I forget the number that she quoted, but it was like some ridiculous number.

00:16:47:22 - 00:17:05:08
Robbie
Like, we watched this film 250 times or something, you know, something like that. I mean, I that's not the exact number, but you get what I'm saying. And it struck me because I was like, oh, I thought I was, you know, at my low level, crappy cable television. I thought that was the only one that would need to watch the show 200 times.

00:17:05:10 - 00:17:21:23
Robbie
But no, like she went on to explain that every time there were specific goals, right? Oh, we're trying to neutralize the whites or we're trying to balance blacks here, or we're, you know, trying to equalize the blue and all the sky, like, whatever it she gave a range, a range of things. Right. But that way, you know, that kind of thing I really believe in.

00:17:21:23 - 00:17:40:00
Robbie
And internally we talk about that all the time. Right. Because I always say just inside baseball, I, I say, I say the joke all the time. Wow. How did you get through that so quick? Like, how did you get, you know, from shot one to shot 1500 in like a day and a half? You know, it was. Reminds me of, like, big strokes, man.

00:17:40:00 - 00:17:49:18
Robbie
I'm just banging through it like, you know, not even worrying about any details. Just, you know, transform with game a game, you know, saturation, move on to the next shot or whatever the controls.

00:17:49:22 - 00:18:01:15
Joey
It's it's a sculpture. You start with a block of material. Yeah. Your first pass, you take off the biggest amount, know. And then every subsequent pass, you take off less and less and less and less.

00:18:01:17 - 00:18:23:12
Robbie
Yeah. And I would say, you know, the how many times you do that is based largely on the project but I the way here's the how I think about it. I think about it as long complete passes initially. Right. That initial get through touch every single shot right. My next pass is going to be entire project watch two.

00:18:23:16 - 00:18:49:07
Robbie
But this time I am pausing and stopping for the major bugaboo of like, yeah, that's a that's when that shot's yellow, this shot's green. And trying to refine those. It's not until probably passes three 4 or 5 six that I'm even worried about things like windows tracking, you know, keys, what kind of stuff. And when I'm at those stages, I tend to be more scene based.

00:18:49:07 - 00:19:15:11
Robbie
Right? Like this. Okay, I'm taking this three minutes and refining this and going back and forth and playing back and whatever, and then moving on. And that's, you know, in a narrative kind of thing. That's pretty easy to do because it's very clearly the scene, that scene, that scene, you know, in something like, you know, a doc where you might have a lot of interviews, it might just be, hey, I'm going to focus on all of the interviews, getting them in the same range, even though they're spread around across the.

00:19:15:11 - 00:19:26:10
Joey
Film kind of thing. And it might even be the opposite. It might be. I'm filtering my timeline and ignoring the interviews. I'm getting everything else in good shape. Then tomorrow I'm going to deal with interviews.

00:19:26:12 - 00:19:41:12
Robbie
Yeah, but I mean, I think I think the larger point, though, is to just not try to bite off more than you can chew, because I think it goes back to the first thing that we talked about, and that is so many people waste so many time, so much time trying to get one shot or a couple shots.

00:19:41:12 - 00:20:02:10
Robbie
Perfect that they run out of time this way. The way I think about passes is if you know the the hammer fell this afternoon and I had to turn this in, right. Had to show somebody at least I've touched every shot and add in some value, whether it's right or wrong or perfect. It's not the point. I've at least touched every single shot.

00:20:02:12 - 00:20:05:12
Robbie
And like, I could begrudgingly be like, all right, well, it is what it is.

00:20:05:12 - 00:20:25:09
Joey
And I think that goes to the original topic that we're discussing, you know, how do you know when to show the client you were saying that, like, you know, you're later in later passes or when you get into specifics like windows and tracking, those might not be as necessary for the overall tone of the project as a general shot matching an overall flow.

00:20:25:10 - 00:20:47:13
Joey
So yeah, it's so much more important to get those fundamentals down first, but then dig into the details, because also when you start digging into those details, that might be when you want to get the client involved. So basically depending on the project, when are you ready to show the client? It could be after all of your initial balancing passes are done.

00:20:47:19 - 00:21:00:18
Joey
And you're right at that point where you want to get into the nit, the nitpicking stuff, because you want the client's perspective on that. It might be, depending on the client, you might want to get that nit picking done before you show them.

00:21:00:20 - 00:21:13:06
Robbie
Yeah. And I think that's largely informed on based on the things that they've told you. Right. So like if they say something to you like it's really important. Like I'm, I want the skin tone on this main actor to be perfect throughout the whole film. Then you work.

00:21:13:06 - 00:21:13:20
Joey
Valuable.

00:21:13:22 - 00:21:42:02
Robbie
You want it. You want to have that handled before. Or if it's something like, you know, like in, like reality stuff like, you know, God, I we're going to have to blur all these license plates. They're distracting, like, you might do a pass on the blurs before you send or something like that, right? Yeah. It's a little bit informative in the client, but I think, you know, when I think about it, I think we can kind of call this down to probably three or 4 or 5, six, kind of like kind of tips, I think, in my head about how this kind of how this works, keeping in mind all the previous stuff we talked

00:21:42:02 - 00:22:06:16
Robbie
about the clients, the references, the test grades, the passes. Right. And the very first thing again, that first pass. Yeah. Who cares? Just touching every shot, kind of treating that it's don't island and improving. Maybe a little bit of back and forth but not not a ton. The biggest thing that I look for on that second pass, starting in the third pass or whatever, is about matching, I'm going to generically call it air quotes here.

00:22:06:16 - 00:22:29:17
Robbie
Tone. Right? Yeah. Tone and contrast. And that's harder than it seems. But it's actually it's actually a pretty easy thing right? I, I do this on two levels. I'm curious about how you do it too. So number one, I think the biggest mismatch oftentimes between shots is less to do with color and more to do with exposure and contrast.

00:22:29:17 - 00:22:47:11
Robbie
Right. Are we're just the way our brains work, the way our eyes work, you know, we're we're more sensitive to that. Right? So if you go from a shot that has, you know, contrast ratio up here to one that has one down here and it's not informed, and I'm using that loosely but not informed by the lighting or the creative decisions.

00:22:47:13 - 00:23:10:00
Robbie
Then yeah we need to balance it out. And I look at that on scopes. Right. So I'm using like a luma waveform to like okay here's my peak. White is here's where my black is. And just it's I don't know trying to get you know, them basically in the, in the the ballpark. I'm not obsessing about it at this point, but I'm trying to get okay, let me just try to get everything right about the same levels.

00:23:10:00 - 00:23:29:11
Robbie
Right. And then this is going to allow for me how I do this, I do this squint test for this as well, because sometimes, like I feel like especially if things are like fast cutting or like relatively like, you know, quick cuts or whatever. I just finally like, I don't know, I feel like when I'm watching it in real time, like eyes open, I miss something.

00:23:29:16 - 00:23:52:22
Robbie
So every time I just kind of just do a little squint like this. And if something pops out in that squint like it doesn't look like one continuous thing, right? I tend to I tend to go back and figure out what the problem is. Okay. Yeah. And there are some tools for this, by the way, like, you know, I know that there's some like timeline, like timeline, like luminance mapping tools and scopes, like on the scope and scope box and stuff, right?

00:23:53:01 - 00:24:01:21
Robbie
Where you can see a history over time of like, yeah, this was my exposure. Like, I'm trying to get, you know, in a scene any way, trying to get a pretty even line across that.

00:24:01:23 - 00:24:15:21
Joey
Yeah. The only thing I would warn about that is that doesn't tell you the whole story, because most of our perception of an image is based on contrast. That one line might show you the raw numbers, but it doesn't show you how you perceive it. And you can only.

00:24:15:21 - 00:24:16:13
Robbie
And that's.

00:24:16:15 - 00:24:18:03
Joey
Watching it down in real time.

00:24:18:03 - 00:24:20:13
Robbie
And and that's why I utilize that.

00:24:20:14 - 00:24:45:23
Joey
And especially you don't see kind of mismatches. Right. Like you can have two images that yield the same like average level that look completely different. And that's where you know, the ingredients that go into making that total amount of contrast or amount of luminance are important. And my two tips for this are if you're using contrast controls in your grade, be aware of where the pivot is.

00:24:46:01 - 00:25:04:01
Joey
I think pivot is something that gets forgotten a lot, and I don't mean just the contrast in the pivot in that pivot knob. If you use lift and gain, then the pivot between those two is the dead center of the signal. And if you're working on a log image in, for example, log C or S log, that.

00:25:04:06 - 00:25:04:11
Robbie
You're.

00:25:04:15 - 00:25:30:02
Joey
Actually in a different spot. Yeah. So you might not want to rely entirely on lift and gain. Or, you know, you might make all your contrast adjustments and be very happy with the overall tonal range of the, of the shot. But the one kind of give away shot to shot that I think people will feel it, but they won't be able to articulate it is if the black level bounces up and down dramatically.

00:25:30:04 - 00:25:51:06
Robbie
And I should, I should I should rephrase my earlier comment about contrast because you said something about the like the middle values and not, you know, that's not the whole image. And I agree, I should have said setting black and white level, because everything in between to me is subjective in the matchy part. Right? So I'm, I'm just trying to get those, those peaks to be about the same.

00:25:51:06 - 00:25:53:04
Robbie
So nothing kind of pops out.

00:25:53:06 - 00:26:10:01
Joey
Yeah. And I feel like, you know, bouncing black levels. That's kind of the biggest giveaway in terms of shot matching with contrast that is not just obvious, but also a relatively easy fix in most cases, you can grab like a log control and just kind of tweak that.

00:26:10:03 - 00:26:26:06
Robbie
Yeah, I agree, I agree, and I think that the the other thing about the, the sort of the, the, the tone is because, you know, there's part of that is the, you know, the luminance component, the, the, the brightness component. But I also think that some of this has to do with, with with color, of course. Two. Right.

00:26:26:06 - 00:26:43:00
Robbie
If one shot's more red or pink or whatever. And I tend to just like that, like we talked about earlier, I tend to do that same kind of thing with like big strokes to small strokes. Right. So I might do it initially with like an offset control just. Oh, okay. Yeah. Now I'm much more in the range.

00:26:43:00 - 00:27:03:15
Robbie
Right. And then smaller that, smaller smaller steps after that. Right. I might go okay. Now I got that. Now I'm going to go to my HDR wheels or my, you know, my log wheels. Or maybe I'm even going to pinch points with my color management pipeline set up to optimize color printer points. You know, just one click back, a red two clicks, a green, whatever it may be.

00:27:03:17 - 00:27:06:13
Robbie
So, you know, wide, wide, the small kind of thing.

00:27:06:14 - 00:27:26:20
Joey
My biggest tip for that, you know, you've got your contrast dialed in. That was one pass, you know, now we're trying to match shot the shot. Your initial move, like you said, is essentially white balance, right? It's the overall balance of the image. How much red, green and blue relative to each other is in there? Is it really warm?

00:27:26:20 - 00:27:50:02
Joey
Is it really cool? But one thing that I think a lot of times get lost is especially in documentaries, you know, this isn't really a thing in most, you know, artistically shot narrative things where everything is intentionally lit. But in documentary land, you've got sources coming from everywhere, and they may or may not be the best sources. So your color management might not get everything.

00:27:50:03 - 00:28:12:20
Joey
What we consider volumetric color wise in shape. So when I look at look at shot to shot in a documentary, once that contrast and general color tone is is together I look at volumetric changes. Are the blues more teal or are they more magenta? Are the yellows and the oranges pushing more towards red or more towards a pure yellow?

00:28:12:21 - 00:28:36:08
Joey
Look at grass and green trees. Are they pushing more towards yellow or are they a deeper green? And then I'll get in and use things like the color warper or my hue versus hue, or even hue versus, satin lume curves to kind of sculpt the shot in a color volume way to where things match. So in an ideal world, again, back to the beginning.

00:28:36:08 - 00:28:56:08
Joey
When is it ready to show? It might be ready, get all the contrast done first, then you've got all the white balance matching, and then you're happy with all the volumetric matching at the fine level, right? The kind of three stages, I think. And then maybe you can start thinking about showing the client and getting into even more detail.

00:28:56:10 - 00:29:17:21
Robbie
Yeah. So that's the that's the next thing is after that sort of initial tone and contrast, I think that you're right. I think for a lot of projects, especially if you have a sense from the client that they want to be really involved in the grade, that's a great point to stop and present, right? Because like anything you do, like, might you be surprised about the things that bother them, the things that don't bother them?

00:29:17:21 - 00:29:35:09
Robbie
You're like, I didn't even see that. That bothers you, right? You also have the potential if you don't, you know, not presenting at that stage. If you don't know the client very well, you also have the potential to work yourself into you know, a corner in a problem, in a in an issue that's going to require a lot more work to undo.

00:29:35:09 - 00:29:57:05
Robbie
Right? So I think it's a little bit of a fine line. But like if you do know the client, I'd say move on to the next thing, which is the, the, the major objects or the detailed objects up close, skin, your skin tone, colors of eyes or, you know, cars or other objects in the scene. Like, a lot of times people won't be able to articulate those differences.

00:29:57:05 - 00:30:25:13
Robbie
Right. But you'll be surprised how much that goes into the success of shot matching. Like, I was just working on something the other day where it's like, okay, this person had a black coat on on the eight cam and in the b cam. It just had a little bit of pinky kind of, you know, magenta e just I mean, just like if you weren't looking at them side by side, you wouldn't really notice it other than feeling that like something's just a little off in those too.

00:30:25:13 - 00:30:46:12
Robbie
But what is it. Right. And it's like, oh yeah, it's just there's a little more red in the code or the contrast level in the code is off, whatever. That's the next step of refinement that I'm getting obsessed with. Right. And I'm going to be clear, I'm doing that as a whole. Separate pass after I've done that initial bounce pass after I've done that, you know, shot matching tone in contrast past like the big steps.

00:30:46:12 - 00:31:05:12
Robbie
Now I'm starting to get into those details. And at this stage I'm creating a lot of stills. I don't really create a lot of stills for those initial passes, but at this stage I'm like, yep, okay, jacket. Still, this is the reference for the jacket. Let me go through the scene, match everything else to that, skin tone.

00:31:05:12 - 00:31:30:16
Robbie
Yep. That's the skin tone I like. Let me go through that and match every skin tone. You just have to be careful. I think of a spending too much time on on shots, but also, and I know this goes counter to my OCD ness, you gotta be a little careful of not overengineering at this stage, right? Yeah, I think I think that you find the big things, the things that matter, the things that have a lot of value.

00:31:30:16 - 00:31:46:08
Robbie
But the coat I just mentioned. But you know what? Nobody's going to really notice the eyelashes that are slightly out of focus because you're using a fast lens on somebody, right? Like, like don't like that level of, of detail. Probably not worth at this point, but I will for me.

00:31:46:08 - 00:32:04:07
Joey
When I'm at that point. Yeah, I'm doing something similar, but slightly different. I'm not pulling stills. I'm using play heads and bouncing between like three shots in a scene, and I'll have them mapped to my little Elgato Foot pedal. So I'm like, tap dancing with my feet to jump between different shots on a playhead. Yeah.

00:32:04:09 - 00:32:20:19
Robbie
And like when, like, why are you stills? And I use and we've talked about this in a previous episode. I use split screens a lot for that. Same that same that same reason. But also more to the point is that when I start dealing with these small little items, you know, it's a lot of micro passes. Okay.

00:32:20:19 - 00:32:28:17
Robbie
Five shots. Let me get them in line, start back at the top of those five shots and then go through. Right. I'm not trying to okay.

00:32:28:18 - 00:32:34:23
Joey
The past can be a scene. It can be a group of interviews. It doesn't have to be the whole film.

00:32:35:01 - 00:32:52:22
Robbie
Yeah. And I'm slowly at this stage, once I start getting those details work, I mean, it's like I'm starting in the middle and not not literal middle, but, you know, the the wherever I start, I'm working out from there, slowly but surely, incorporating more and more of the project into that detail past to try to get it to match.

00:32:53:03 - 00:33:11:17
Robbie
And honestly, I at some point with this work too. I find that I do a lot of rippling too, because I'm trying a lot of things out, right? I'm like, oh, okay, well, what happens if we, you know, puts the jacket this way or whatever? And that's all fine. That's good. That's a good way. A good way to work.

00:33:11:22 - 00:33:54:13
Joey
Yeah. So okay, we've gone in, we've refined it to the point where we feel that it's time to show the client. Okay. Now we go through with the client, we start doing our review, getting their feedback. I think the next really important thing, consideration here is you don't want to when you're dealing with your client notes. One freak out if they have a lot of them because whereas you've been dealing with this project and doing your passes and you feel like you've been with this grade for a long time, they've been with their offline for a long time.

00:33:54:13 - 00:34:24:19
Joey
This is their first time seeing the whole thing together. Don't be afraid of notes. Don't be afraid of trying things and don't react negatively to those notes. But when you are working through those notes with the client, do not paint yourself into a corner. Do not have, for example, if the client says, I don't like the way the shadows are sitting, don't ripple or changed everything that will make it unrecoverable.

00:34:24:19 - 00:34:50:02
Joey
If you end up going back on it. Be very cognizant and honestly, this is something that we should we should think about the entire process from the beginning is you never want to paint yourself into a corner so much that you are committed to a direction, because that's when you can kind of lose client confidence. If they're like, well, now I need two hours to go undo the thing that we just tried.

00:34:50:04 - 00:35:15:02
Robbie
Dude, it's it's so true. I, I remember, I've been in this the spot myself, you know, trying wanting to try out some new technique, some new tool and lean too heavily on that. Right. And, you know, then the comment as well, it works. But, you know, I'm not in love with it. And then just that horrible feeling of like, cool.

00:35:15:03 - 00:35:36:08
Robbie
Well, that was so integral to what I created here that if we just turn it off, it's going to look nothing like what it's supposed to look look like. Right? So like, yeah, that's that's something you definitely want to avoid for sure. So I think that at this stage when you so you've done, you know, your detailed watch, the big tone watch you've worked in passes, you put it in front of the client.

00:35:36:08 - 00:36:00:14
Robbie
They've gotten some comments. I still think that there's like a level of satisfaction that you, as the colorist, need to hit even after you've integrated into it. So number one is putting it back in front of the client again after you've addressed the notes, just to get their gut feeling. And if it's and it's a win in my mind, it's a win if you can hit, you know, if you're if you're at 85, 90% on the notes right of like, yeah, that looks great.

00:36:00:17 - 00:36:24:16
Robbie
You've done your job exceedingly well, right. Most projects it's probably closer to like 60, 65%. And then the rest is still up for discussion, you know, kind of tweak a little bit. But at that stage, before I present again, the thing that I'm fixated on is not the details, not even the tone. It's about slow. But as I'm watching it, nothing takes me out of it.

00:36:24:16 - 00:36:39:17
Robbie
Right? I think that's like, I like the last kind of step that I do is like, it's just I the flow is the only way I can say it. You might say continuity, you might say whatever, but, like, I don't want to sit there and watch the film or the show and at all be bothered by something.

00:36:39:22 - 00:36:56:06
Robbie
If I'm bothered by something at all, right, I'm looking at it and making the decision worth fixing. Not worth fixing, you know. You know, can I do this? Can I not do it? Because sometimes there might be things that you just had no control of, right. Like I had one the other day where it's like the matte box was like in part of the frame.

00:36:56:06 - 00:37:16:00
Robbie
They're like, well, okay, well, that part of the frame is across somebody's face, so we can't really paint it out like, you know, something. So you have to make decisions of what you're going to live with. But even after I adjust those notes, I'm still doing, yet another pass to make myself feel confident that it can go out in the world.

00:37:16:04 - 00:37:19:19
Robbie
And nobody's going to be like, oh, well, Rob graded that. That sucks, right? That.

00:37:19:23 - 00:37:48:23
Joey
Yeah. And I think, you know, one thing that can be really helpful for that kind of we're nearing the end of the client notes. We're approaching delivery. I want to make sure this thing is ready to go out in the world. That's when what I consider kind of the consumer style watch down is really important. If you have a big client monitor in your suite, sit in front of it on your couch, right.

00:37:48:23 - 00:38:12:00
Joey
With no distractions. Watch it like a viewer would watch it. That means you're not looking at scopes. You're not looking at UI monitors. You are watching it on TV. And if that means dropping markers for yourself with a little keypad, if that means writing down notes, of anything you want to go back and readdress. But it doesn't mean I'm halfway through.

00:38:12:00 - 00:38:29:01
Joey
I see a problem in a shot. I'm going to jump back to my desk and fix it, and then jump back to the couch. No, you need to get into that zone of I am a viewer. I am watching this as a viewer would watch it. I'm going to go from beginning to end, and then I'm going to address anything that I saw afterwards.

00:38:29:03 - 00:38:48:08
Robbie
So sitting in front of the couch with the sweets, a good one at home here at home, I've gone I've taken that a step further and you're going to laugh at me. I don't ever think I've told you this. I've actually, for many years now had my set up wired where I have a home run HDMI cable, going upstairs to the living room on a cell.

00:38:48:08 - 00:39:08:07
Robbie
That's clever on a separate input. So I actually remove myself from all the fancy control surfaces and everything all together, and I just sit in my actual living room where I consume content regularly, just on a different input on the TV. And I sit up there and I watch it, when I do that same thing in the suite.

00:39:08:10 - 00:39:36:02
Robbie
One thing I don't do this at home because I, my wife would kill me if I wired it with a stream in the living room with a stream deck. But, at the office, I have a little, little stream deck that has transfer controls and a marker control, and I just got in the habit. I get in the habit of, I have like 2 or 3 colors of markers that I draw, and I'll just I'll just drop those for different things and then I'll go back and usually it's, you know, at any given grade at that stage it's probably maybe a dozen, half a dozen do a dozen things.

00:39:36:06 - 00:39:55:10
Robbie
So I'm not worried about naming them whatever. I know what they are. But that seems like, you know, it's funny. Our audio team talks about this same process, too, and I'm always reminded of the stories back from like, mixing and mastering engineers working with audio that I know who, you know would always and they still do this. But now the technology a little different.

00:39:55:10 - 00:39:56:21
Robbie
But the car mix, right?

00:39:57:00 - 00:39:59:09
Joey
Yeah. Bernard mix CD, listen to it in the car.

00:39:59:13 - 00:40:26:08
Robbie
You got a mix perfected. Well let's look at that translate ability. Right. And so watching it in that casual environment like you said is a good one. The other thing that I do these days, just honestly, just because it's how people are going to be consuming it anyway, I have an iPad permanently set up at I at the desk right to where I'm I'm constantly streaming over and I or, you know, black magic streaming or whatever to that iPad just so I'm like, okay, cool, cool, cool.

00:40:26:11 - 00:40:46:12
Robbie
Just a quick glance down. Things are translating well and they're not going to be perfect. Maybe there might be limitations, but yeah, that's translating well, that's my intent. Move. You know, go go forth. Because you'd be surprised how different environments, how different monitoring solutions can impact some of this. And you want to just kind of try to replicate what your clients might be looking at, at viewing it, etc..

00:40:46:14 - 00:40:59:12
Robbie
Because the last thing you want to do at this point, too, is if they still have a problem with something, be like, oh yeah, it's monitoring. No, it's fine, don't worry about it. Right? Yeah. Like you need you need to try to like get in their, their, their shoes a little bit too.

00:40:59:14 - 00:41:05:19
Joey
And that's the thing like yeah we're talking about we're, we're talking about heresy here looking at our grades on consumer devices.

00:41:05:21 - 00:41:06:01
Robbie
Know.

00:41:06:03 - 00:41:30:18
Joey
But we shouldn't be looking for overall okay I'm going to now adjust my entire look because of where it looks on the iPad. It's oh, I watched on the iPad. And I saw one of those little volumetric matching things that I didn't notice when I was going shot the shot before I was sitting down watching it on my couch and I noticed, yeah, the sky looks a little bit weird in that one shot.

00:41:30:20 - 00:41:32:19
Joey
It's just something I didn't see before.

00:41:32:19 - 00:41:48:05
Robbie
And that's what I meant by slow, is that I'm just, you know, and it might be not even the need to change anything. I'm just like, did. That bothered me for some reason. I'll come back and look at it on reference monitoring and go, you know what? I actually think it's close enough. That's probably just, you know.

00:41:48:07 - 00:41:49:17
Joey
Yeah, maybe my TV sucks.

00:41:49:20 - 00:42:04:00
Robbie
Yeah, that's a peculiarity of that environment or that display. I'm not too worried about it. Like it looks fine. Like, so like if I make in that pattern I mentioned, I make like a dozen markers. I might actually do something about 1 or 2 of them. Right. It's, you know, the majority of it is just just to catch out.

00:42:04:01 - 00:42:29:00
Robbie
Yeah. No. So I think we're on the same page with that. I would also just say at this, at this stage to just to reiterate this, we've talked about this in previous shows, and you mentioned it in a moment ago about not paying yourself into a corner. It's worth mentioning that at every stage prior to showing clients or delivering to clients or whatever, that you're making a project back up or however you.

00:42:29:00 - 00:42:29:22
Joey
Want to give it.

00:42:30:03 - 00:42:51:16
Robbie
Timeline, back up, project back up, etc.. So when the inevitable come, like I had the situation three weeks ago, the producers I were working with, they were like, this is great, love everything about it. Let's roll with it. Right? It was, it was a TV commercial for a big, food chain. Great. Awesome. Feeling great about myself.

00:42:51:18 - 00:43:20:14
Robbie
Oh, the client took a look at it and now wants 48 changes. Right. And here's what I was thinking to my head. Sure they do. They don't really mean that. They just have to say something because that's their job is, you know, the ultimate client just to say something. So if I had in this particular case, because of the nature of the changes, if I had just continued on, not saved out a version, I would have had had done some, you know, gymnastics in terms of versioning, etc., because the changes were so substantial that, you know, whatever.

00:43:20:16 - 00:43:44:21
Robbie
So I delivered this change version and we know what happened. Yeah. No, we were wrong about that. Can you just go back to the way the first syllable? Sure. I can let me just re-import that drop that I saved earlier and, you know, and go with that. So like also at the, you know, as you were thinking about this refinement stuff and passes, think about every pass maybe as a new save as right or a new or a new duplicate of the timeline.

00:43:44:21 - 00:43:59:09
Robbie
Right? Because even if you're really fastidious about this, all of us make mistakes with how we manage our grades in terms of nodes, you know, ripples, all that kind of stuff. But having a full, complete backup of a snapshot in time always worth it.

00:43:59:11 - 00:44:21:05
Joey
Yeah. I cannot count the number of times like I do backups of everything all the time in, like, triplicate, because I'm so paranoid and I've never had it be really required because of a technical failure, but because of operator error. Oh, many, many, many times.

00:44:21:07 - 00:44:27:07
Robbie
And I'm better with this. I'm better with this now. But man, when I first started using ripple, it was like, oh.

00:44:27:07 - 00:44:28:05
Joey
God, I knew it.

00:44:28:05 - 00:44:36:17
Robbie
Was like it was like a daily occurrence of me re importing the Harveys back into the in the database. When I used to screw that up so much.

00:44:36:19 - 00:45:04:15
Joey
So yeah, if the if the answer to the overall question of the of the day is when are you happy with the grade, all of this comes back down to you've gone through, you've done your due diligence on everything. You've done your passes. The client is happy, you're happy, and at the very end of it, you can sit down on your TV and watch it like a viewer, and it's something that you feel you can be proud of.

00:45:04:16 - 00:45:20:11
Joey
Yeah. Then it's ready to go out into the world. And that doesn't mean you wouldn't a week later, look at it be like, oh, I wish I had nitpicked that sky a little bit more, because every time you look at it, you might think, oh, well, maybe if I tweaked it it would be better, but maybe it wouldn't be.

00:45:20:15 - 00:45:35:16
Joey
You know, at some point, you know, you have to lock it down. Like you said in the beginning, it's never finished. It's abandoned. But you want to abandon it at a point where you're feeling good about the whole, not just some of it.

00:45:35:18 - 00:45:57:07
Robbie
Yeah. And I, I tend to avoid that whole problem by just never watching anything that I work on. So I don't have I don't have buyer's remorse, you know. But, no, you're, you're you're right. And I think that, you know, you also can get a feel for the project, like if you are, you know, so some projects are and we've said this phrase before, but some projects just aren't art.

00:45:57:07 - 00:46:15:16
Robbie
Right. Like it's just got to get done. It's got to get out the door. Right. And you know, the ones that I really obsess about are the ones that I really feel passionately about. I feel like I love the filmmakers, I love the subject, I love the photography. You know, in a lot of those shows, like, you know, I don't want to make any, any concessions to anything.

00:46:15:16 - 00:46:39:16
Robbie
I want to fix everything and have it be 100% perfect. But there's some projects, whether it's limited by time or limited by budget or limited by just what they got in the can. You know, sometimes, like success and being ready is just client acceptance, right? Like there are going to be projects where you get the client to accept what you've done, but you're not 100% of it, 100% with it.

00:46:39:18 - 00:46:47:10
Robbie
And that's just a fact of life being a colorist, right? There's not you're not going to be in love with every single grade that you do. And be like, that was the best thing ever.

00:46:47:12 - 00:47:14:22
Joey
And that's where those kind of projects are, where this past mentality, this mentality of making sure it all flows, works as a whole, I think is maybe even more important because yes, it may not be perfect every shot may not be perfect, there may be problems that were unfixable, but it's still a done product that can be watched down, and most of the time the viewers wouldn't notice those things.

00:47:14:22 - 00:47:22:23
Joey
Or if they're in context of the whole being together and good, they just won't matter.

00:47:23:01 - 00:47:52:11
Robbie
You know, it's I will say one really funny thing, and I should start paying them because they have been invaluable to me, my other coworkers besides you, you know, Cheryl, Jeremy and those guys, as well as my family, my kids, have been incremental to my my mental sanity sometimes about projects. And what I mean by that is that I'll be obsessing about something and going that doesn't match it really bothers me.

00:47:52:13 - 00:48:10:17
Robbie
And sometimes you can get so into the weeds with that. So it's like, you know, I it's analogous to me like checking, saying, oh, you know, like, lip sync, right? Sometimes you can convince yourself that there's a problem when there's not really a problem. Yeah. So if you are, if you're in a stage about your and your wavering, like, is this, is this good, is this bad?

00:48:10:17 - 00:48:29:21
Robbie
But that's actually a good tell to get it in front of somebody else. Right. And I'm just saying that there can be a middle ground like I use my family, I use my other coworkers like, hey, can you watch the scene down now? Tell them what I think the problem is. But you say, just let me know if there's anything that bothers you play.

00:48:29:23 - 00:48:45:20
Robbie
And nine times out of ten they go, no, that looks great. You know, I don't I don't I don't see any problems. And you go really? And you're like, yeah, no, no problem. And then when you pointed out they go, oh yeah, I that, that doesn't bother. I didn't see that at all like that. That's so cool. It's like four frames.

00:48:45:20 - 00:49:10:08
Robbie
Why does that bother you? And you're like oh okay cool. You know, so, you know, I think we have a tendency just to be perfectionists and sometimes you have to they have to balance out that perfectionism versus a lot of other factors cost, schedule and actual impact on the project. Right. You know pardon the French here. It's a it's a bad phrase, but it's one that we use internally all the time.

00:49:10:10 - 00:49:30:03
Robbie
You know, seldom does pixel fucking deliver, you know, 100% above and beyond results. It might make somebody feel good about themselves. But, you know, those four pixels in the upper left hand corner are not a make or break to the grade. And if you convince yourself that they are, you're in for a bad time, right? Just so just, you know.

00:49:30:05 - 00:49:40:04
Joey
Put it this way, would you rather all of your shots are 100% better or one shot is 110% better? Right. And the rest are not right?

00:49:40:05 - 00:50:02:04
Robbie
Exactly. No, no, we're on the same place. And the last thing I'm just going to say about all of this, before you show anything to anybody, no matter what stage you're at, is be committed to what you have. Right? Yeah. And I actually say this for positive reinforcement for myself because I'm literally the worst at this. I'll go in and sit on the couch and go, cool, ready to watch?

00:50:02:08 - 00:50:26:12
Robbie
Well, let me give you 91 caveats before we move. I'm show right now and it's like, shut up, Rob. Just let them watch. Let them say something. I've gotten a little bit better over and over the years, but it's it's one of those things where, you know, trust me, there are worse colorists than you. Even if you think you're the worst colors in the world, there are colors worse than you two.

00:50:26:14 - 00:50:36:21
Robbie
You always have to remind yourself no matter what, you're probably adding value. That discussion about that back and forth is the nature of being subjective.

00:50:36:23 - 00:50:40:14
Joey
Yeah, right. I don't like to caveat anything.

00:50:40:14 - 00:50:41:04
Robbie
I know you don't.

00:50:41:04 - 00:51:02:07
Joey
Do a client unless it's technical, right? If it's oh, we still haven't gotten all of the upper sources for this one. There's one real. So that's the one that has burn in time code. Ignore that. That's a reasonable caveat to tell the client before they watch down. But caveat is, man, I don't know. This footage was really hard and I don't think it all matches really well.

00:51:02:12 - 00:51:05:11
Joey
That's something you don't want to put into their brain.

00:51:05:13 - 00:51:30:14
Robbie
Here's Joey's emails to clients. Hey, how does this look? Link. Thanks, Joey. Right. That's literally oh, that's literally always emails are my emails are like, hey guys, just got a first passed on about it. Here's 11 bullet points. And it's like, oh my God, why do you do this to yourself? Rob so I mean, I think that there's it's a fine line with this stuff over communication is a problem that I have for sure.

00:51:30:16 - 00:51:44:20
Robbie
But, you know, it's it's about like because you do want to you need to figure it out for that. Just so as we talked about before, with the technical part and the creative stuff, you also need to figure and we did an episode on this about client communication, right. Figuring out what the client, how they like to communicate.

00:51:45:00 - 00:52:06:14
Robbie
Some people might be feel like they're being taken care of. If you give a lot of detail, right. Some clients might be like, this is just noise, let me just watch the damn thing and I'll get back to you. Right. So you got to figure that part out as well. But just regardless, being committed to it and going, yeah, this is the best I could do at this stage, at this budget, at this amount of time and, and go forth with it and be confident with it.

00:52:06:14 - 00:52:25:21
Robbie
So good stuff man. A lot of good tips here. Like I said, it's a hard it's a hard thing to do to to put your work in front of somebody else. Right. And that's never going to get easier for anybody. It's always a challenge of like, you know, put it in front of somebody. Are they going to love it or they hate it, right?

00:52:25:23 - 00:52:54:21
Robbie
And I mean, that's one of the reasons, by the way, just one last thing about this, that I want to pay you homage as well. I have stopped completely stopped sending end of day like six, 7:00 emails with the review links. Right? Here's why. Because if I send that review link at 7:00 at night, right? I am waiting on bated breath the rest of the evening to see if any notes come in.

00:52:54:21 - 00:53:12:15
Robbie
Right. So do yourself a favor. Present things when you're ready in the mental space to attack it and approach it. Don't do yours. Don't do what I do sometimes and I again, don't do it anymore. Send it. And now just wait around going, oh my God, are they going to comment or they're going to comment. They're going to that anxiety is no way to live.

00:53:12:17 - 00:53:14:00
Joey
Yeah.

00:53:14:02 - 00:53:30:23
Robbie
Good stuff. All right man. Well good discussion I appreciate it. Hopefully our, listeners and viewers found this one interesting as well. Just as a reminder, we have a growing library of content. We mentioned a few of the shows about client communication and others. Feel free to go back and view, past episodes. A lot of good stuff in there.

00:53:31:01 - 00:53:47:08
Robbie
A lot of related things to this discussion. And, you know, I would also just mention that if you have some ideas for shows, you can always head over to OffsetPodcast.com and use the, submission form as well. Thanks to Andreas, who gave us the, the starter for, for this episode. It was good, good discussion.

00:53:47:08 - 00:54:08:00
Robbie
I think, you can find the show on all major podcast platforms as well as YouTube. Please like and subscribe wherever you find the show. A little bit goes a long way. So. Yeah. Thank you for a great conversation. This is definitely got me thinking about my process a little bit, too, and how I could probably be a little more efficient and refined these things, but, hopefully it helps for your.

00:54:08:00 - 00:54:11:20
Robbie
So for The Offset Podcast, I'm Robbie Carman.

00:54:11:22 - 00:54:19:22
Joey
And I'm Joey D’Anna. Thanks for listening.