EP037: Color Education PT1 w. Cullen Kelly

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:16:08
Robbie
Hey everybody, and welcome back to another installment of The Offset Podcast. And this week we're talking about color education, what you need to know and who you need to learn it from. Stay tuned.

00:00:16:10 - 00:00:35:05
Joey
This podcast is sponsored by Flanders Scientific leaders in color accurate display solutions for professional video. Whether you're a colorist, an editor, a dit, or a broadcast engineer, Flanders Scientific has a professional display solution to meet your needs. Learn more at Flanders scientific.com.

00:00:35:07 - 00:00:44:14
Robbie
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Offset Podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Robbie Carman. And with with me, as always, is Joey D’Anna. Hey, Joey. How are you doing, buddy?

00:00:44:18 - 00:00:46:07
Joey
Hey, everyone.

00:00:46:09 - 00:01:05:08
Robbie
Joey. So today I want to take a look at something that we've been skirting around, like, I think discussing on some levels, because we weren't quite sure how to, to frame it. And that was the idea of sort of color education, you know, the, the concept of learning what the buttons do, how to use the buttons and contacts.

00:01:05:10 - 00:01:22:15
Robbie
The creative part about that, and maybe you could even argue a little bit of like the business practices that go on in terms of like, you know, running a color business. Now, I think, you know, both of us have a huge how would you say this? Like a very long and varied background in education, right?

00:01:22:15 - 00:01:40:16
Joey
Yeah. Yeah. We've done conferences, we've done web based training. We've done official training for companies like Dolby. We've done, you know, one on one consulting with clients. So we've been around the education game for a while.

00:01:40:18 - 00:02:01:18
Robbie
Yeah. I mean, I mean, listen, I, I was thinking about this today and ahead of this, this episode, and I was thinking early 2000, whenever Apple rolled out the Apple Pro training series program, I was part of the first generation or so of that. I think I did the first book project, the first book I wrote in 2003, maybe 2004.

00:02:01:20 - 00:02:20:08
Robbie
I've done a lot of books. I've done a lot of online training with, with Lynda.com. First that became LinkedIn learning. And then I, with a couple other colors. Friends of mine at the time we started, a whole, you know, training platform and ran, that company for, you know, and contributed content for over a decade.

00:02:20:10 - 00:02:37:14
Robbie
You know, as you said, conferences, etc.. So it's there. But I just think, like when I think about education and what, you know, our what we've done over the years and what's going on right now, it just seems to me that like these tools are not getting any simpler, right? The workflows are not getting any more robust, and a lot of ways are becoming more complex.

00:02:37:14 - 00:02:52:21
Robbie
You need to know more than you did 10 or 12 years ago, right? Like it used to be. Like you walk into a room and talk about a lookup table and people will look at you like you have five heads, right? These days people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't care about that. I want to talk about like the the computational performance of a plugin or something like that.

00:02:52:21 - 00:03:10:20
Robbie
Right. Like people, people's level of this has just gotten much better. And it just dawned on me that, you know, we should maybe do an episode where we talk a little bit about education and the importance of it, the ongoing part about it, the learning paths, the preferences. But listen, man, we talk a lot about the stuff.

00:03:10:20 - 00:03:32:09
Robbie
We teach it a lot, but there's plenty of other people out there in the world who are doing an incredible job, teaching. And I have over the past, I would say six, seven, eight years probably been the most impressed by our good friend Cullen Kelly. Who, Cullen Kelly, Cullen Kelly color say that five times fast.

00:03:32:11 - 00:03:48:22
Robbie
Is, he's a colorist. He's a developer. He's an educator. He's a speaker. He's, you know, all the things that you can do in that world. And it just so happens that we reached out to Cole and said, hey, Bud, can we get you on the show? And here he is. Welcome. Cullen How are you, buddy?

00:03:49:00 - 00:03:52:11
Cullen
What's up guys? I'm doing great. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

00:03:52:13 - 00:04:09:08
Robbie
Oh, no worries, man. We are. We're, We're stoked to have you. You know, just a quick, aside for everyone, all of our our audience, our viewers. I was lucky to meet Cohen probably about a decade or so ago. And, you know, he was at a time working as a colorist. And in Austin, Texas, that's where you're from originally, right?

00:04:09:09 - 00:04:10:06
Robbie
Austin.

00:04:10:08 - 00:04:13:08
Cullen
Dallas. Way back when, but okay. Awesome as well.

00:04:13:10 - 00:04:34:04
Robbie
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there was something like, you know, when you meet somebody, you're just like, that guy's on to something, and I kind of like, I didn't quite know what it was at the time, but I was like, there's something about this guy. And flash forward, you know, a decade or so, you're kind of running your own little, like, color, Empire, if you will.

00:04:34:04 - 00:04:56:11
Robbie
Right? Like you got your hands in a lot of little things, right? It's. You're doing grades for big time clients. You're, you know, running your own community with, you know, hundreds if not thousands of members now who have taken your classes and courses and, you know, kind of followed your, sort of your boss, like, guys of color education, you've, you know, gotten into the development game.

00:04:56:11 - 00:05:11:13
Robbie
I think a lot of people probably know you from all your amazing detail work over the, over the years, but, like, even now, you're jumping into, like, the next level of that, right? Doing your own program. I know you have like, you know, a couple plug ins that you're developing. Contour comes to mind is one that's out there right now.

00:05:11:15 - 00:05:27:00
Robbie
And then, you know, sometime somewhere in that whole mix, you're finding time to, you know, be a dad, be a husband, you know, all that kind of stuff. Also very, very big. Congratulations that, you just became a, an associate of, the SC. Is that correct?

00:05:27:02 - 00:05:29:00
Cullen
That's right. Yeah. Thank you very much. Appreciate that.

00:05:29:02 - 00:05:48:11
Robbie
Yeah, that's that's super impressive. And for those of you don't know, this is like it's a pretty hard club to get into, right. You have to have proven yourself to a lot of very high end practitioners, DPS technical people or whatever. And so con has that in spades, man. But again, we can't I can't thank you enough for for coming on today and talking to us.

00:05:48:13 - 00:06:04:04
Robbie
I want to begin our conversation a little bit about just to give people the, the your, you know, quick backstory. How did you go from I'm a colorist to now, hey, I want to be involved in education. I want to be involved in development. What did that path look like for you?

00:06:04:06 - 00:06:21:02
Cullen
Gosh, you know, there's so many different, like, moments in that story that I could call out the kind of, like, pivoted the path a little bit left or right of just like being a colorist in the chair all day, every day. But one of the big ones that comes to mind is like, I've been on my own for like, a lot of my career and just having to figure stuff out.

00:06:21:06 - 00:06:42:08
Cullen
In fact, like one of my I think the first time I this may not have been the first time we met, but the first time that, like one of the first experiences I remember having with you, Robbie, was going to nab like, gosh, however many years ago, like ten plus years ago, and really wanting to learn more and like knowing like, hey, if I want to learn more from the people who know this stuff, who are sharing it, I need to be in this room.

00:06:42:11 - 00:07:05:03
Cullen
So like, I scraped together like a southwest, you know, like airplane ticket to get to NAB and to join for post-production world. So I was like, you know, very, very hungry for knowledge. But what comes to mind, thinking about where my path has gone is as I started to get access to that knowledge and find people who were willing to share or who I could like, you know, like sort of just keep nudging until they would tell me what I wanted to know.

00:07:05:03 - 00:07:22:05
Cullen
And one of those big moments for me was when I actually went to work at a post house, and I wasn't the only colorist, I wasn't running my own business. And somewhere along at that point in the journey, when I started to get feel like I was getting like, oh, I'm getting Luts, like from these other post houses and getting insights from people who are working on big movies and with the colorist.

00:07:22:07 - 00:07:38:12
Cullen
One of the things that really occurred to me is like, all at once, like, wow, this is so cool. Like, not all this knowledge is expected and it's not not all stuff I would have guessed. But the other thing is I was like, dude, this is just knowledge. Like, why was it that hard to get, you know, like I was equipped to understand this.

00:07:38:12 - 00:07:48:07
Cullen
I was excited to understand this five years ago. In some cases. Why did it take that long? That was, for me, one of the very first seeds that was like, this got to be fixed.

00:07:48:09 - 00:08:05:06
Robbie
You know, I don't recall when this was, it was some sort of industry event. Maybe it was NAB or maybe, you know, an early version of the color mixer or something. And I remember somebody, you know, a couple well known colorist. I won't name names. They're so well known and known in the industry. Kind of came up to me with like, a little bit of an attitude being like, why are you teaching this stuff?

00:08:05:06 - 00:08:26:17
Robbie
Like, you're giving away the special sauce, the secrets. And like, I just remember, like, kind of being a little incredulous about it and just being like, guys like, no, like, this is this is information that, you know, we're doing ourselves a disservice as an industry if we try to hide it. You know, it's like we're not like, you know, and I know you feel I know you feel similar.

00:08:26:17 - 00:08:28:03
Robbie
So it's interesting to hear you kind of.

00:08:28:04 - 00:09:03:01
Joey
Yeah. I mean, the we have moved, I think forward a lot as an industry in terms of removing gatekeeping on both capability, as in all the software, as much cheaper and all the hardware as much cheaper, but also getting rid of gatekeeping in terms of knowledge. I think at this point, the overwhelming attitude is that if someone's hiring you because you know a secret that you probably are not well positioned in your career, I don't feel threatened by somebody else learning what I just learned, or I learned a year ago or whatever.

00:09:03:01 - 00:09:04:04
Joey
Whenever.

00:09:04:06 - 00:09:09:12
Cullen
Absolutely. Yeah, that that secret sauce syndrome is is, is like on its way out, thankfully.

00:09:09:14 - 00:09:14:18
Robbie
Totally. So you're in this post environment, you're getting those juices going. What happened next.

00:09:14:20 - 00:09:39:10
Cullen
Yeah man. So I another like significant part about this chapter in my career is this was the first time. So at this point I am back in Los Angeles after living in Austin for several years and in Austin, I'd run my own post house, so I was the guy in the chair. But I was also trying to run a business and cook the books and produce the jobs and, you know, like run client service and do all the stuff that you do when you're just a little, you know, like color business, trying to take care of your clients.

00:09:39:12 - 00:09:57:14
Cullen
And this was my first opportunity working at this post house in LA there like, hey, go, great, do your thing. Producers will produce client service, will provide client service. The assist will do their job. Your role is to color grade. So I was color grading all day, every day. And like that was a magic moment for me. Like I felt so excited.

00:09:57:14 - 00:10:14:20
Cullen
And I grew in my practice like crazy in that time. And then a really weird thing happened. I realized, like, this is kind of boring to me. Like, I was not down to be in the chair eight hours a day total. And I realized, like, there are all these other adjacent things that like, like I would get distracted by weird stuff.

00:10:14:20 - 00:10:31:23
Cullen
It's not like, oh man, is boring. Like, I want to go to a ball game or something like that. I was like, this is boring. Like I want to play around with, like how these images are being formed or I want to better understand, like what this tool is and how it works. So it was all still in that sandbox, but I wasn't content to just to do the thing all day, every day, if that makes sense.

00:10:31:23 - 00:10:32:20
Cullen
And that's maybe another.

00:10:32:21 - 00:10:51:18
Robbie
Oh dude, it's it's I've never heard somebody say it so articulate, but I, I agree, I've always explained that feeling as kind of like, like a circular one thing feeding the other kind of round robin kind of thing, right where it's like, okay, well, I do the do the creative work to give me the cachet to be able to speak and talk about it.

00:10:51:18 - 00:11:11:23
Robbie
Right. Which then gives me the cachet to do other, you know, book projects and, you know, education. It kind of all feeds each other. And I think that that feeling of it's hard for us as colorist to write, like, especially if you're working on similar genres all day. It's it's pretty easy to be like, yeah, just another day, you know, with Game of Game saturation, next shot.

00:11:11:23 - 00:11:26:07
Robbie
Right. And you're, you're plowing through 1500 shot timelines. You need something in your life to kind of give you a little, you know, a little peek at that other side. Right? It sounds like getting into education, doing the development stuff was kind of that for you.

00:11:26:08 - 00:11:48:00
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this was around this like right in the same time period. This is probably like I don't remember when it was I think probably resolved 16 was when the CTL thing came out. That was another like ingredient which I didn't know I was making yet. Like that like literally clapped me back to being like 8 or 9 years old and programing in QBasic.

00:11:48:02 - 00:12:08:00
Cullen
I was like, dude, this is like incredible. Like, I got it. I just got completely obsessed by that dimension of it. And that became like one of the main, like, okay, I'm tired of grading. I want to do this other grading related thing, like DCT became kind of the number one pivot and then that, you know, started adding to the the Pi as well.

00:12:08:02 - 00:12:10:19
Joey
No, QBasic was legit though. Come on.

00:12:10:21 - 00:12:14:02
Cullen
Dude. Yeah, that was serious stuff.

00:12:14:04 - 00:12:32:23
Robbie
So fast forward a few years, obviously, you know, you have worked hard at all these angles in your life, the creative and the technical and the stuff. Let's talk about the community one for a second, because it seems to me like a pretty natural transition to go like, hey, I'm a practitioner, I'm a colorist, I'm doing this.

00:12:33:01 - 00:12:49:20
Robbie
And then the adjacent stuff, like, I want to figure out how the tools work. Great. So you researched color science and stuff, and we'll get into that minute and then you start getting into programing. Cool. You're making tools now, but like that seems like a fairly far jump from to to like to make it to like. Nope. Now I'm building a community.

00:12:49:20 - 00:13:10:13
Robbie
I want other people to get up to speed. Like, did you always have, some way for Say it like, did you always have the passion to like, kind of see other people when have them sort of grandkid learn it and go, oh, they're sort of their moments with that kind of stuff. Or did that just kind of happen by like a byproduct of doing what you were doing?

00:13:10:15 - 00:13:34:03
Cullen
You know, where that passion came from? It came from my own experience of being like like I started to, grasp at this a minute ago, I think, when I was like, look, by the time I started laying hands on the knowledge I've been seeking, right? Like, this is how high end movies are graded or this is like, you know, these are practices that a lot of high end colors use or that most high end colorist you're not going to see use.

00:13:34:03 - 00:13:46:20
Cullen
Well, like whatever those pieces were getting that knowledge being like, oh my gosh, like feeling like my thirst quenched on one hand. But then on the other hand being like really frustrates. I'm like, the only reason I didn't have this five years ago was because no one would give it to me. It's not that I wasn't ready to receive it.

00:13:46:20 - 00:14:03:09
Cullen
It's like, you know, like I think about music a lot. I think there's a lot of overlap there. And I know Robbie, you're a musician. Like, yeah. When you're playing guitar or any instrument, there are things where like, okay, cool, I just mastered this skill or this little like piece of dexterity with my instrument that, like, I wasn't ready for six months ago, so that's cool.

00:14:03:09 - 00:14:14:03
Cullen
I'm leveling up. This wasn't that. This was like, dude, you were ready. Just no one would give it to you. And it was because they had this mislaid notion of secret sauce protecting their ability to thrive.

00:14:14:04 - 00:14:33:13
Robbie
You know? You know, that's a great the music analogy is another good one. So I've played guitar my entire life. It's a passion of mine. But my son, who's now 11, 12 years old, is really getting into it. And I was telling him a story to this day because, you know, now it's tab apps on the iPad or the computer, like, like it's that simple to find out, like how to play a song.

00:14:33:15 - 00:14:48:01
Robbie
And I was trying to express to him I was like you when I was a kid. Like I had to get like guitar player, wait for it every month, and then in the back of a guitar player, it was like two songs of ten. It was like a Vale Van Halen song and like a rat song. And I'm like, that's all you got.

00:14:48:01 - 00:14:54:05
Robbie
And like, you had to learn how to play, right? Exactly. That's what I get to learn this month, you know, it's it was it was very special like that.

00:14:54:05 - 00:14:55:17
Joey
The rat song is all you need.

00:14:55:17 - 00:15:15:23
Robbie
Come on. Right. Twice. So if I, if I can interpret what you just said, then you had this passion for, like, hey, I wanted this knowledge. Then it kind of just, landed in my lap. Is like, is running a community and doing what you do now, is that like the manifestation of that? You're trying to get other people like, hey, do it with it what you will.

00:15:16:00 - 00:15:22:06
Robbie
But I don't want this knowledge gap to be like a deal breaker for your creativity. Is that kind of the motivation behind it?

00:15:22:12 - 00:15:34:09
Cullen
100%? If anyone shows up with the level of like passion and intention that I had when I needed that knowledge, they should have access to it and I feel personally responsible for making sure that happens.

00:15:34:11 - 00:16:00:11
Robbie
Excellent. Well, we'll get back into the community stuff in more detail in a second. I wanted to kind of talk a little bit about kind of the general areas of education that I see for us needing to know in the color world, post-production, etc. and, get your perspective on them, because I think, I think one of the things that Joey and I get accused of is maybe too strong, but I think we're definitely biased for is like the technical side of it.

00:16:00:11 - 00:16:25:17
Robbie
Right? Like we're, you know, very heavily like the ones and zeros, you know, like, the signal, whatever. And I think that's kind of where I want to start, sort of like, kind of the science of color, right? Like, in your opinion, how important is it for somebody who's getting into this, you know, maybe somebody in your community to really grasp, like human visual system, right?

00:16:25:17 - 00:16:40:19
Robbie
Like how, you know, like visual science works, like, you know, CIA diagrams, you know, 1931, like, what role does that stuff in its importance? Do you think it plays into getting up to speed and being able to master the craft? How important is.

00:16:40:21 - 00:17:00:02
Cullen
Yeah, it's a great question. And it really speaks to the fact that, like, almost as soon as you get into the room, when you start learning color, it appears that there are like these 20 different corridors that lead very different directions, like, oh, I could get into gear, I could get an image science, I could get into grading, get into tools, get into Luts, like get into client collaboration, get into like how to sell myself as a professional.

00:17:00:02 - 00:17:04:04
Cullen
Like all these things that ultimately converge. But they feel very different.

00:17:04:04 - 00:17:04:09
Robbie
Yeah.

00:17:04:14 - 00:17:18:14
Cullen
Opposed at the beginning. Right. So like the thing that I always like to apply there, like you guys can vouch for this, the challenging thing, the cool thing, but also the challenging thing is the answer is like there is not a single one of those hallways you could walk down and be like, I'm mad that I did that.

00:17:18:16 - 00:17:35:18
Cullen
Like, are you guys mad at an inch of the expertise you have in like, the most, like, esoteric aspects of display technology? No, no. Serves you right. In your profession, I'm same way. Like there's nothing I've ever learned in any of the lanes that we just, like, made a quick index. And I'm like, oh man, what a waste of time that was.

00:17:35:20 - 00:17:58:23
Cullen
So I think the better question becomes, and it's a question you can continuously ask yourself, where are you currently constrained at the moment? What is your weakest point? What is stopping you from attaining whatever you want next in your career, which is also personal and depends on the practitioner. But if you can ask the question and answer it, okay, like I'm really suffering because I don't understand development and the powerful role it can play in my process.

00:17:59:01 - 00:18:15:16
Cullen
All right, you better go learn. Look, that I'm constrained because I just haven't looked at enough images like, I just don't know what makes a beautiful, well reproduced image. Okay, that's where you need to focus. So like that theory of like looking. It's there's a it's a whole principle that has really impacted my life as I've come to understand it.

00:18:15:16 - 00:18:23:22
Cullen
Like the theory of constraint that you look for where you constraint and then you relieve that bottleneck aggressively until it is no longer a constraint, and then you get to the next one.

00:18:24:00 - 00:18:46:22
Robbie
Well, let me ask in a slightly different way, because, I mean, I think you're I understand what you're saying. I think that there is like there's a level of conversant ness that needs to happen for people like, you know, if I'm going to have a discussion about, you know, something technical in a color world, I'm probably going to, you know, have to be somewhat familiar with a key diagram or like, a volumetric graph or something like that.

00:18:47:00 - 00:19:07:19
Robbie
I guess my question is like there's, there's conversant and like base knowledge and then there's like going the level deep like we had we had a call, a podcast episode. I don't know, maybe about six months ago where we were talking to a Nate McFarland from Dolby, and he went to, he went to R.T. and did the whole image, you know, program there and really knows the depth of it.

00:19:07:19 - 00:19:30:11
Robbie
And I asked him a question like, what do I need to know? Like all the matrix math and like, you know, variate transforms and all that kind of stuff. And he's like, if you want, like, I just, I guess from your perspective, you obviously can go deep on that kind of science of color, but to be like a, a valued member of our community, to be a good practitioner, how deep does one need to go with that stuff?

00:19:30:11 - 00:19:42:17
Robbie
I get the I get the blockage, I get the roadblock thing that you're talking about. But like, just like when you're teaching somebody, do you, like, harp on this stuff? Like, no, you need to know some baseline color science to really be successful.

00:19:42:19 - 00:19:49:16
Cullen
You know, the another good way to look at this like this one I'm going to steal directly from. Do you guys do the masterclass dot thing.

00:19:49:18 - 00:19:51:10
Robbie
Yeah I was a member for a while.

00:19:51:12 - 00:20:12:17
Cullen
Dude. I was such a junkie for for learning new cool stuff, but like one of my favorite ones, it was like one of the first ones they did was Neil deGrasse Tyson. Oh, and of all the stuff I really like took away from that one, he's got this great point. I feel like for anyone who teaches this stuff, because the question you're asking is like, right at the heart of like, how in the world do I teach this in an accessible but in a meaningful way?

00:20:12:22 - 00:20:31:09
Cullen
So people want to learn. And he's got this great, like analogy or not analogies, just this great sort of like framework that he walks through for how he teaches people about the roundness of the planet, of the radius of the planet Earth. He's like, okay, level one is the Earth is round. Do you understand that? Would you like to know more like, well, it turns out the earth is not perfectly round.

00:20:31:09 - 00:20:47:13
Cullen
It's a little flattened at the poles. Do you understand that? Would you like to know more? So there's this sort of. It is kind of a tiered step thing and I think like creating those steps. So it's like, all right, this is a handhold. It doesn't mean you're not going to want to climb any further. But like here's a handhold for you.

00:20:47:15 - 00:21:04:20
Cullen
And then saying like when you're ready there's your next one. Like, you guys, I can't see my hands, but you know, you get my point. Like, yeah, I feel like that's there is still that analogy that holds it like it's really just a matter of like finding the next handhold without worrying about what's at the top and then evaluating from there.

00:21:05:00 - 00:21:12:05
Cullen
Does this suffice for now, for what I need to do for my clients, for what I want or do I need to go a click further? And I really do think.

00:21:12:05 - 00:21:39:07
Joey
Yeah, I always felt like when it comes to the technology, the science part of it, there is, you know, in the grand scheme of getting a successful color grade done and having a happy client and getting your bills paid and being fulfilled in that career. Right. Knowing the deep color science is like 5%, and knowing a deep enough in that kind of genre of technical knowledge is like a 5%.

00:21:39:12 - 00:22:09:18
Joey
But I do feel like it is also some base level knowledge, and that is important to have a foundation to build from. Right? It's like, yeah, it might end up being 5% of your general knowledge of the overall subject, but it's kind of the first 5% you need because you're you're building up from there. Like your example, if you start to think about navigating and you don't start with the earth is round, you're gonna run into some really bad days.

00:22:09:20 - 00:22:11:10
Joey
You know, trying to get around.

00:22:11:12 - 00:22:30:08
Robbie
I hear what you guys are saying. I guess where I'm trying to to lead at is that one of the things I think that Cohen in the world of color education, broad term, of course. But one of the things that I think you've done very well and I and I'm only saying this because I, I watch from afar a lot the interactions you're in, in your community.

00:22:30:08 - 00:22:54:00
Robbie
Right. Because there's, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of really good conversations. And I've been doing this for almost 30 years, and I sometimes look at that community and feel intimidated is the right where is really the like the like the closest word to say? Because I look at it and I'm used to being like, not to toot my own horn, but I feel like a lot of times I walk in a room and like, I'm the smartest guy in the room right about about this stuff, right?

00:22:54:02 - 00:23:18:16
Robbie
And I walk into your community a lot and I go, wait, they're talking about matrix math and this and that, and I'm just like, what is going on? And so because it's, you know, sort of the community that you've helped foster, I, I'm asking the question, are you placing an extra level of importance on that stuff, or does that just happen to be the type of practitioner that you're currently attracting?

00:23:18:22 - 00:23:22:08
Robbie
Is the one that's really into that super geeky stuff?

00:23:22:10 - 00:23:42:11
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, look, there's some hardcore geeks in my community for sure. And I, I, I would count myself among them, except I have to caveat that by saying I also drop into some of those threads, like you, Robbie, I'm like, what have I not? I don't know either. But it's like, I really do think like there's no pat answer.

00:23:42:11 - 00:23:53:17
Cullen
I mean, here's the other dimension to it that always comes to mind. Like some of the most successful colorists I know, you guys know these artists to their knowledge of just the baseline, like non-existent. You're talking about.

00:23:53:23 - 00:23:54:14
Robbie
You know.

00:23:54:16 - 00:24:11:05
Cullen
Old school. Tell us any colorist who can get a great image ten times out of ten and that and they've got a great client base, and that is how their career is going to play out. And who's to say like there's a problem. Like what's the problem? Their clients. Or maybe they love their work. So it's really hard to assign an absolute even minimum mandate there.

00:24:11:07 - 00:24:32:14
Cullen
It just depends on where your passions run. And here's the other thing I would say, like because that example, I feel like it's thrown out a lot, in conversations about how much I need to know, I would say that is not a bar to aspire to because those colorist where if I were to hit reset on their client base and on their skill set today, could they reacquire their successes without that stuff today?

00:24:32:16 - 00:24:39:14
Cullen
I think that's a question that is, like more up for debate. But I point out that, like, it can vary a lot just depends.

00:24:39:14 - 00:24:59:09
Robbie
And I and I will and I realize, I mean, like, I, I'm, I'm a few years older than you guys. And I kind of realized that I'm like, I'm this like kind of like midlife crisis moment where I'm kind of just being like, like simultaneously feeling like, okay, fine. I'm now to a comfortable place where everything's not a struggle and I can, you know, repeatability of work and I'm making good money, whatever.

00:24:59:11 - 00:25:24:06
Robbie
But then I look at some of the younger crowd out there, and I just, I feel I sometimes feel like I'm being lapped in my education and my knowledge about some of this stuff, because it's sort of like when I, when I, when I was getting mentored and training up, nobody was talking about mathematical transforms, right? We were talking about, you know, like S-Video cables and like, you know, like it was it was just a different world.

00:25:24:06 - 00:25:44:12
Robbie
I get that part of it. But like, it seems to me that one of the the challenges that you talked about limitations, I've noticed that as a limitation of mine, like I need to become more knowledgeable, more conversant, even if I'm not doing all of the math about this, about the color science part, about it. And I will say, you know, I almost, you know, my late 40s or whatever, it's it can be challenging, right?

00:25:44:12 - 00:25:58:22
Robbie
And it's just it's hard to kind of switch that gear because for so long, those gears were tuned to just twist the knobs, don't worry about what they do. And now everybody's like, oh dude, I just made this custom tool to do X, Y, and Z. Isn't it cool? I'm like, yes, I want to do that. How do we do that?

00:25:59:03 - 00:26:01:01
Robbie
And I get stuck at the math, you know?

00:26:01:03 - 00:26:22:08
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, dude, it's so funny. Like, I feel like I at one point, maybe a few years ago, I represented to a lot of people, some sort of like plausible endpoint of how deep you would take that knowledge journey. Now I'm like, maybe in the middle, like even within my communities we just talked about there's people who are like way talking around me.

00:26:22:08 - 00:26:39:21
Cullen
Like one of my like easiest examples, like one of the people I talk to most of my life is my mentor, Mitch Bogdan quits. Right? I speak with him probably at least every other day. 76 year old man who talks circles around me, and I'm literally just trying to hang on to the right, like in our whole conversation, like quite pleasurably.

00:26:39:21 - 00:26:57:23
Cullen
So. But there is like there is, for me, a concept in there, like, all right, whatever I can hang on to whatever, like grabs me. That's what I needed to grab at the moment and whatever was like skated past and I just couldn't get my arms around. That's okay. It's either going to come back around or it's not for me, even though it might be for somebody else.

00:26:58:01 - 00:27:17:09
Robbie
Yeah, I get it, I get it. Well, let me one last question about sort of this color science stuff. The the background where like what did you do? Because obviously, I mean, maybe you were born with an innate knowledge of how this all works, but like, what did you find as valuable resource? I mean, obviously, your relationships with other color scientists, as you just mentioned, is, is a big deal.

00:27:17:09 - 00:27:41:08
Robbie
Like, obviously, that's a that's a leapfrog, to your knowledge, having direct access to people who have that background. But where did you go? What did you do to improve this knowledge of now? Like, this is how you know everything from, you know, emotionally on the film stock work to this is how the math and a transform works like what resources were you using and looking at to like get up to where you are now?

00:27:41:10 - 00:28:05:15
Cullen
Yeah. You know, it's funny. Like it's even like when I was learning this stuff or in such a different moment now in terms of like availability and volume of like knowledge and, you know, like information in this area. Yeah. Yeah. When I was doing it, it was available, but only in limited portions, like I can, I can remember like the handful of resources that really fed me for like the first year or two.

00:28:05:17 - 00:28:25:17
Cullen
They were patent filings from Doctor Mitch Daniels. I can't tell you how many of his patent filings I read. Just trying to understand film and its intentions and its mechanisms. They were posts on ACS central, and the other huge one that like, I think this finally went down and I grabbed it as a PDF beforehand and thankfully, the Brady campaign.

00:28:25:21 - 00:28:26:19
Cullen
Do you remember this thing?

00:28:26:21 - 00:28:28:12
Robbie
Yeah. Yeah, sure.

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:47:12
Cullen
Like a great image, scientists. This thing, like, it was just meant, like Carrie published it like, you know, as a, way of documenting, like, how their cameras and how their scanners and stuff work, but it ends up being like this incredibly great contextual tour through. Yeah, basic image science and the way it touches in these different areas of the process.

00:28:47:14 - 00:29:02:03
Cullen
So for me, it was less like like there was enough for me to find resources, but not so much that I was like, oh my gosh, where do I go from here? Yeah, that's my where I am now. I've got like a backlog of PDFs and like a bunch of books and stuff that I got to go read that I'm behind on.

00:29:02:05 - 00:29:11:03
Cullen
But when I was learning the stuff, it was more like it was just it was kind of like your, you know, guitar player monthly thing of like, all right, I'm learning these new songs this month because that's what.

00:29:11:05 - 00:29:28:07
Robbie
Well, it's funny because like Joey, for example, Joey can sit with a white paper, like, you know, Joey has like, you know, Charles point in books sitting on his coffee table that he reads for like, you know, like reading before he goes to bed, like, I've always looked at that stuff and gone. There is, there is a layer that I'm missing to get to there, right?

00:29:28:07 - 00:29:47:16
Robbie
Like I'm sort of like I and I, and I, what I admire and people like you. Nick, you mentioned he's essential, so just drag his name. Nick Charles. Another great example of somebody who who can do this. I think he's like that conversant. Like, if you're with, you know, Doctor Marc Dunaway, it's like you're having one set of, discussions with a certain vocabulary.

00:29:47:18 - 00:30:08:21
Robbie
If you're talking to your students, you're having another, you know, discussion with a different set of vocabulary, like, so I guess the last question on having this is, how do you modulate that? And like, especially for your community with people of varying skill levels, how do you modulate those discussions to where the new new person can get it?

00:30:08:21 - 00:30:15:00
Robbie
And the person who might be a little more advanced can kind of get it? How does that translation work? Back and forth?

00:30:15:02 - 00:30:36:21
Cullen
Yeah. You know, it's a great question. And it's what I ask myself all the time. And that my short answer there would be imperfectly like, I know that I don't calibrate down like sufficiently for beginners all the time. I think my biggest secret weapon there that like at least works for me. Like anytime I'm learning something quick, the sort of like the context I try to give to other people, or the experience I try to give to other people.

00:30:36:21 - 00:30:51:19
Cullen
Like when I'm learning something, I need context, I need repetition. Those are the things that unlock it for me. So like, even like Doctor Point in books is a great example. I can't read Doctor Point books without needing a reason to read that chapter of Doctor Point in the book, because I'm working on a problem. You know, a reference for.

00:30:51:19 - 00:31:11:16
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like without that, I will never get it. The other thing that's just mandatory for me, you're gonna have to repeat it to me. Like doctor McGann notes, knows this from all of our, like, hundreds of hours of phone calls. You're gonna have to repeat it to me like eight or 9 or 10 times. That's the one that comes to mind when I talk about this, because, like, I don't make a ton of conscious effort to calibrate my my vocabulary down.

00:31:11:17 - 00:31:26:01
Cullen
Like I still use the terminology that I do, right? I just try to take the time to define and I repeat it like crazy, so that if you've hung out for me for 2 or 3 of my like, YouTube live sessions, you've heard these terms before because it's the same ones I'm using week in and week out. Yeah.

00:31:26:01 - 00:31:31:04
Cullen
So there's kind of an indoctrination just by, you know, like repetition, if that makes sense.

00:31:31:06 - 00:31:52:21
Joey
Yeah. Whenever I've been training people on anything, I feel like I always get to a point where I'm like, okay, so here's for example, this set of steps and the why behind them. But until you actually take this and utilize it in a real project where you're trying to solve a problem with these techniques, you're not really gonna fully understand it.

00:31:52:21 - 00:32:16:23
Joey
And then oftentimes it's, you know, that's when you need that repetition is like, okay, I took in this class, I watched this talk, I read this book, whatever. It was all really interesting. Now I'm going to sit down and try to try to implement this on a project that I'm working on. Oh, I need to go back and reference that material again because it just I thought I had it, but I didn't I that's what I run into most of the time.

00:32:16:23 - 00:32:23:01
Joey
It's like I don't really get something until I really need to use it in a real world scenario.

00:32:23:01 - 00:32:42:09
Robbie
I think that's also like one of the, one of the issues with being, you know, like like Colin is like a well-known educator and teacher is that I think a lot of people I mean, I sometimes make this assumption, I make this assumption about you, too, Joey, that like, you just have all of this information accessible and ready to go 24 hours a day and can quote it like, perfectly right.

00:32:42:11 - 00:32:56:06
Robbie
And I think that like, that's, that's it's, I don't know, maybe it's like a nice human factor to know about, like, so, you know, like you might be at the top of your game right now. You know, from an educator point of view, but you still gotta to go look things up every once in a while. You still gotta go figure it out.

00:32:56:06 - 00:32:57:13
Robbie
You still got to test it, right?

00:32:57:14 - 00:33:21:01
Joey
I've always said that the two most important skills that anyone can have in any endeavor is one. Knowing how to find out information. You don't need to know everything. You need to know where to look, how to look, how to get that information, and to knowing how to think processes in your brain for troubleshooting, arranging concepts, stuff like that.

00:33:21:01 - 00:33:29:03
Joey
Once you have those two skill sets, you can kind of dive into any subject and and get valuable insight from it.

00:33:29:05 - 00:33:54:10
Cullen
Yeah. That's great. And like I, I feel like, you know, the one of the big like pressure relievers for me in my education and sort of public speaking journey has been realizing exactly what you just said, Joe, that it's like, okay, we can be you can ask me a question like, this happens at least once a week. And most of my, like, YouTube lives, like, I don't know, like I don't this is not like everyone shows up and, you know, tries to stump me and no one ever can because I'm just that great.

00:33:54:14 - 00:34:12:09
Cullen
If you ask me questions all the time, like, dude, I don't know. Or like, you know, I've got a three year old and a one year old I used to know, but I don't know right now. But the funny thing about those is, like, often what's even more valuable than me knowing is me not knowing and standing there and figuring it out in front of people because of exactly what we just said.

00:34:12:10 - 00:34:27:08
Robbie
Well, I think, I think, I mean, I think that that's that speaks to I mean, that's that's the sign of somebody knowing what you don't know is a skill. Right? And then that's, that's an important thing. Let me switch gears slightly from the last technical color science background stuff, because I think that you had some good perspectives on that.

00:34:27:10 - 00:34:49:22
Robbie
And, you know, I think one of the things that is a challenge in the world of just generically call it post-production education, because you could be teaching an edit application, you could be teaching, you know, an audio application, whatever. Is that separation between this is what a button and the slider does, and this is the when and why of how what you know, you're using that slider right.

00:34:50:00 - 00:35:07:19
Robbie
And I think, you know, a lot of over the years I've often whether it's been me writing a book or doing a video tutorial, I've kind of I've been pretty hard on myself because I sometimes have a little bit of like imposter syndrome with like the, the, the why or the situational of doing this and kind of just default to teaching.

00:35:07:21 - 00:35:25:20
Robbie
Nope. The slider works from 0 to 1, and here's what it does. Right? Like how do you how do you bounce that? Because it's like on one level people need to know technically what these tools do, right. Like I look at your community all the time and people are like, oh, it's linear game this and whatever. And like so that's like that.

00:35:25:20 - 00:35:42:16
Robbie
Underlying this is what it does. But how do you then translate that into no, we got to just make some nice images that appear on the screen, because that seems like a challenge, because there's some people who don't want to have anything to do with the technical part, and they just want the creative. And there's other people go, I need to know the technical before I do the creative.

00:35:42:22 - 00:35:47:03
Robbie
And it seems like it's a, a kind of a, I think, tough thing to juggle.

00:35:47:05 - 00:36:06:14
Cullen
Yeah. It's kind of like two opposite ways into solving the same problem for sure. And I think like one of my ideas that I've held for a long time is if you're just approaching kind of from the outside end of like, all right, I just need to use these to make that look good. That's a pretty low bar.

00:36:06:14 - 00:36:21:05
Cullen
It's kind of like like my other favorite analogy in this stuff is golf. Like, the people love to say when they're when you hit a weird shot in golf, but somehow it trickles up close to the hole like, hey, if there's no picture on the scorecard that works, you know? But you could apply the same logic with color grading.

00:36:21:05 - 00:36:44:17
Cullen
The problem is like your confidence, your consistency, your efficiency, your repeatability. None of those things convey with that. Oh, I figured it out type of approach. That's why I like one of my big. This is probably where the core of my sort of geeky, bias originates is like I am a big emphasize are of principles over like their.

00:36:44:19 - 00:36:46:15
Robbie
Implementation, right? Yeah, exactly.

00:36:46:15 - 00:37:04:14
Cullen
100. You can change the way they're applied. If you understand the principle, you can be told like, hey, like there's, you know, like police tape around those tools today for some reason for some workflow or other reason or it's broken in this new build, like, okay, cool, I already know what I'm trying to do. I'm just going to find I know what hammers look like, even if I can't use that hammer.

00:37:04:14 - 00:37:05:15
Cullen
You know?

00:37:05:17 - 00:37:34:11
Joey
Yeah, I've always said but but my general thought on that is that I if any way I can abstract the software out of my thinking process, that's a good thing to do, right? You should be able to your goal. I shouldn't say you should be able to. That's kind of a ridiculous standard to hold anyone to. Your goal, I think in dealing with creative tools, is to know what you want to create, and then figure out how to utilize the tool to most efficiently do that.

00:37:34:11 - 00:37:45:12
Joey
You know, I don't I don't like when people say, oh, I'm a resolve colorist. I may be like colors. I'm a premier editor. I'm an avid editor. Now, if you're a really good editor, you know.

00:37:45:14 - 00:37:47:01
Robbie
Yeah, you're thinking about things.

00:37:47:01 - 00:38:15:20
Joey
Like timing and pacing and sound and stuff like that. You're right. You know, when you get to the software, yes, you can be very, very skilled at using a particular tool because that's what you're used to, and that's what you're fast at to get you to that end result. But if you can abstract yourself mentally from the software and say, this is the end result I want to get to, or this is the end result, I'm at least I'm exploring around, that's going to help your process a lot more than knowing what every single button does.

00:38:15:20 - 00:38:33:21
Robbie
Totally. Yeah, I saw I saw something this morning that just put that getting getting back to the guitar thing and the music thing which again has you're right, it has a lot of analogies here. But there's a pretty famous bluegrass musician, Billy Strings, and he's just he's a virtuoso. Right. But since he's been a little, he's just, you know, up and down the neck or whatever.

00:38:33:23 - 00:38:57:18
Robbie
And there was this, you know, in the guitar world, but a lot of the people I talk to about guitars are like, oh, man, if I just have this new whatever, you know, insert guitar here, I would be so much better. Right? And there's this video of him with like a $30 or like toys R us, literally like a guitar made for, like, you know, a child and just going, you know, up and down the neck, just ripping it, ripping it.

00:38:57:18 - 00:39:04:09
Robbie
Right. It's because it's here in his fingers and he's abstracted that out. It doesn't matter the tool he's using. Right. It's just right there.

00:39:04:09 - 00:39:23:00
Joey
And sometimes constraints are a great driver of creativity as well. I'm not saying artificially constrain yourself where you don't have to, but sometimes are being put in a constrained situation where you might not have all the tools that you could want, can push you to think about a situation or a problem differently.

00:39:23:02 - 00:39:43:01
Robbie
I agree, I so I think one of the challenges though, from the, the, the creative side of education, is that, you know, you're so much of what we do is, subjective, but it also it's dependent on client needs and that kind of stuff. And I think that, you know, 20 years ago it was you've had this experience in the post House as well.

00:39:43:01 - 00:40:03:15
Robbie
Cullen, is that like you probably did have somebody standing over your shoulder going, that's not the way I would approach it. That looks like crap. Try this, try that. And now I think the challenge for you, running a community as big as your, as your community is, is largely people are on their own island, right. How do they know that they're doing it?

00:40:03:15 - 00:40:24:01
Robbie
Air quotes here. Right? Right. And I think I'm curious about how you express that to your community and to your students, because it just seems like I will give you a case in point, rack. You know, I mean, it seems like 7 or 8 years ago, like printer points became all the rage, right? Like you're not a real colorist unless you're, you know, you're using printer points.

00:40:24:03 - 00:40:33:09
Robbie
And I'd be like, looking at the, you know, seven stop overexposed wreck, 7 or 9 straight out of camera stuff that I was working with and going.

00:40:33:11 - 00:40:34:02
Cullen
That can't help.

00:40:34:02 - 00:40:52:06
Robbie
Me. That's not really doing much for me. Right? You know, and and feeling like I was doing something wrong. All the cool guys that I knew in a cool gallery I knew were using printer points and creating like, amazing images. And I got like, really like kind of depressed about it for a while because I was like, I must be doing this wrong.

00:40:52:06 - 00:41:10:21
Robbie
I don't know why. Like, everybody else is using printer points for me. So like, how do you balance it? How do you balance like, you know, these tools? There's a lot of overlap in the tools. There's a lot of situational awareness with the tools. Is that what you're trying to teach more than the tool itself is just the situational awareness of the image that's in front of somebody.

00:41:10:21 - 00:41:13:00
Robbie
Like, how do how do you balance that?

00:41:13:02 - 00:41:36:23
Cullen
Yeah, yeah for sure. Like there's the, you know, like principles more than like specific, you know, like tools for applying those principles for sure. And then there's other like it's principles, not just in terms of like what should you be trying to do? At what point in your process? Sort of like visually and conceptually. But there's also other principles from my book, The color is Ten Commandments that I go back to over and over again.

00:41:36:23 - 00:41:54:14
Cullen
So like an example would be greatest gains for least effort. So like if I can get it done, a simpler, faster tool that is inherently superior, even if the other tool can do it, it would be wrong of me in an ideal situation to pick the slower tool, right? Yeah. The other one is, you know, like I'm looking for cost free.

00:41:54:16 - 00:42:14:10
Cullen
So, like, there are tools that can do exactly what I want, but then they will demand compensation that I have to go in and compensate for. And then those tools demand, you can get into that compensation loop that I know you guys know really well. Yeah. So like those are some of the other sort of bounding concepts that help me to narrow from like, all right, at the start, maybe there's 12 candidate tools.

00:42:14:10 - 00:42:27:16
Cullen
That would be a reasonable like thing for me to reach for. By the time you start to apply these very simple concepts that I feel like have great breadth, it gets down to like 1 or 2 and then I'm like, I don't know, pick one and be consistent with that.

00:42:27:18 - 00:42:46:22
Robbie
Yeah, okay. And I think we'll wrap up this part because we're going to do two parts with you here. I guess, big picture stuff I want to wrap up with. You know, one of the the challenges that I see in color education is, you know, there's there's a trend of, you know, whether you want to call it clickbaity or whatever of like, you know, here's a look, let's break it down.

00:42:47:04 - 00:43:10:14
Robbie
Right. Versus, you know, nope. You're probably I would I'm venturing to guess probably, you know, 9.5 out of ten of your students are not doing, you know, the next, you know, huge tentpole feature, right. You know, so like what value as an educator, how do you balance out the perfect ideal situation kind of thing versus like people's real world scenarios?

00:43:10:14 - 00:43:32:00
Robbie
Because I what I get frustrated with and we'll talk about this more in part two, is I get frustrated with the YouTube type educator who is like parked on a single frame, breaking down, you know, a bajillion dollar feature and going, you two can have this for your crappy reality show, right? Like it's not germane. So how do you balance that out?

00:43:32:00 - 00:43:44:15
Robbie
Like, do you feel like there's value in showing good quality footage and bad quality footage? Do you feel like variance is the name of the game when you're trying to learn these tools and techniques, like how do you balance that out?

00:43:44:17 - 00:44:04:17
Cullen
Yeah, it's a great question. And again, like the you know, like one asked by someone who's done a lot of education, obviously, because it's the stuff we think about. So I think for me, like one of the core values that I seek when I'm deciding, am I going to teach this? Like there are plenty of things that I do, plenty of things that I know that I'm not going to prioritize teaching in tomorrow's YouTube video.

00:44:04:19 - 00:44:32:12
Cullen
And one of the ways that I decide, okay, what goes to the front of the line, what goes to the middle, and what's like that? That may not ever go on a YouTube video, right? The big word that comes to mind for me is robustness. Like, I want to teach things that whether you're grading, you know, like burned up 7 or 9 footage or whether you're grading exquisite, you know, like cinema lens, cinema camera type of stuff, the principles will hold the like what will need to be done and how good the end results are going to look.

00:44:32:16 - 00:44:50:02
Cullen
That's going to vary. Like we know like from my professional practices, I can't close the gap between like Sicario and your overexposed wedding video. I can't do it, you know? But I can teach you principles that will hold for grading both of those scenarios. And those are actually my teach the right ones. They will be the same.

00:44:50:04 - 00:45:16:18
Robbie
Totally. I mean, there's I always think about that situation being like, okay, you know, I see these people on various web platform teaching this stuff. Oh my God, that looks gorgeous in that. But first of all, it's a single frame, right? Like one of the problems that I have with a lot of modern color education is that nobody is to like, I mean, you do quite a bit of this, but on the whole, nobody is really teaching shot to shot workflow and matching and all.

00:45:16:19 - 00:45:38:19
Robbie
It's like, because it's hard to show. It's hard to show in a video. So let me take these 400 shots and show you how they're all cohesive. But then I'm also troubled by like, you know, I think sometimes when you look at educators, they want to show off the best version of their approach, right? And so they're using the best example, the best, the highest quality shot, etc..

00:45:39:01 - 00:45:54:16
Robbie
And I often think that, like, you know, God, if only Dave Hussey had to grade the crap that I have to grade day in and day out. Right. But then I'm reminded that Dave went through the ringer and had, you know, worked his way up to be now he's, you know, privileged enough to work with the best DPS and stuff in the world.

00:45:54:18 - 00:46:12:16
Robbie
But I guess the way I'm asking the question I want to ask the question is just like, do you find as a community leader and as an educator, that you face that with your students, they look at your stuff and go, that's great, Cullen, but that's not what I have. Right. And how do you how do you how do you balance that?

00:46:12:16 - 00:46:24:08
Robbie
Like is it is it again relying just on those concepts in the core competency part of it, or are you teaching things specifically for different levels and quality of production and footage?

00:46:24:10 - 00:46:48:16
Cullen
Yeah. No, I mean, it's it's a great thing to think about. And the way that I think about it is, you know, a YouTube video is one type of format. It's one type of venue. There's one type of content that's going to be appropriate and effective in that, arena. And one of the things definitely is like, I'm not going to spend a lot of time grading stuff that doesn't look great, that no matter what I do, is not going to look a ton better, because that's not going to do its job of helping people find me and helping people.

00:46:48:16 - 00:46:53:21
Robbie
And also all the trolls will just yell at you and be like, look, I told you I can't suck, so you can't make them look bad, right?

00:46:53:23 - 00:47:25:05
Cullen
Yeah. And that's, that's I think a big part of of it not doing its job fundamentals. Yeah. So it has to do its job. It has to attract attention and be like, hey look, this is a great outcome. So I can I'm going to like give this guy 30s to show me if there's something else here. And the thing that I, you know, like I repeat, you know, to students and I repeat internally to the team is like, I, I will invest as much as I can in you, my anonymous student in a YouTube video, as the format will allow and as I can, I will invest as absolutely much as I can at a

00:47:25:05 - 00:47:46:11
Cullen
certain point. If you want me to invest more, I will ask you to invest in me. And that's where we're going to go deeper into whether that's engaging with the products that I create to help solve these problems, engaging with the deeper education that goes beyond what I can talk about in a 15 minute YouTube video that has to speak up and down the experience spectrum from new beginning, brand new to like, okay, I'm kind of getting the hang.

00:47:46:11 - 00:47:56:19
Cullen
I want to go deeper. So there is just a natural sort of stair step where it's like, all right, if you want to go deeper, then let's go deeper and there's another venue and another investment level required from both of us to do that.

00:47:56:21 - 00:48:16:15
Robbie
Awesome. Very cool stuff. I want to pause here for just a moment. We're going to come back in a part two. Now that we've covered sort of Cullens ethos and some of this big picture stuff, I have some specific questions, or we have some specific questions about, navigating the world of training, picking the best type of training for you, picking the best avenues and stuff like that.

00:48:16:15 - 00:48:37:14
Robbie
As a reminder, you can always follow us on Instagram and Facebook. Just search for The Offset Podcast. We're on YouTube, of course, and every major streaming platform, and you can also head over to the offset podcast for, additional show notes and some more information. But, Cullen, thanks for this part one and for our audience. We'll be back in just a couple of weeks to talk more about color education with Cullen Kelly.

00:48:37:17 - 00:48:44:17
Robbie
Stay tuned.