EP038: Color Education PT 2 w. Cullen Kelly

00:00:00:11 - 00:00:15:18
Robbie
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Offset Podcast. And today we're continuing our discussion about color education. With special guest Cullen Kelly. Stay tuned

00:00:15:19 - 00:00:35:12
Joey
This podcast is sponsored by Flanders Scientific leaders in color accurate display solutions for professional video. Whether you're a colorist, an editor, a dit, or a broadcast engineer, Flanders Scientific has a professional display solution to meet your needs. Learn more at Flanders scientific.com.

00:00:35:14 - 00:00:57:09
Robbie
All right, man, we're back with Cullen Kelly. And Cullen, thanks again for doing this. If you haven't checked out part one. Be sure to check out that Cullen has some great gems and some great insights about kind of the ethos and the background of his approach to color education, which I thought was good. But, you know, I wanted to ask you a very poignant question, and I don't know if you can answer this succinctly, but you can try.

00:00:57:11 - 00:01:19:17
Robbie
What is a quality education like? You know, a quality teacher, a quality education product for you in the color world? Like what? Like would you if you look at other people's stuff and you go, yeah, that's pretty, that's pretty good. I like that I learned something. What should people be looking for in content when they're evaluating, the stuff to like to try to learn?

00:01:19:18 - 00:01:35:22
Cullen
Oh, man. Yeah, that's that's a question that, like, I didn't have to answer when I was learning the it was like, dude, whatever the one person talking about this is, that's all you got. Like, maybe you learn and then you decide, that wasn't that great. But then it wasn't even a question. And now it's like such a big thing.

00:01:35:22 - 00:01:53:10
Cullen
Like, who do I trust? What knowledge, what resource do I, you know, really like, seek and, continue to try to learn from. And I think we actually touched on a couple of pieces in the first part of our conversation that we can put together. So, there's a few that come to mind. The first one is robustness.

00:01:53:10 - 00:02:13:03
Cullen
Like this is, a callback. Actually, we talked about color science, like in the beginning of our very first conversation about like, how much do you need to know about that? How relevant is it to a functional color grading practice? Ironically, one of the most like strongest contributors from what I've learned in color science to my color grading practice, are the principles of the sciences in general and robustness.

00:02:13:03 - 00:02:16:03
Cullen
Like when I use that word, I use it in the context of the sciences.

00:02:16:03 - 00:02:17:23
Robbie
So like scientific method kind of thing, you mean?

00:02:18:04 - 00:02:44:04
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. Like robustness just means how much, how how broadly does this hypothesis hold? So if I tell you you should always grade using offset okay. Does that hold for like one shot. Does that hold for 10,000 shots. Does it hold across genres and cameras. Like how broadly can you apply the concept or the technique. Right. The broader you can apply the concept or the technique, the higher the quality of the concept technique, the more valuable it is fundamentally.

00:02:44:06 - 00:03:08:22
Cullen
So that's something that like you can, with a little bit of effort, discern from the people you're considering listening to, like, okay, how broadly applicable are the things that this person is saying in my world that takes time to sniff out, but like, that's the first one first. Sure. Like how broadly applicable are those things? Sure. And then the other one again, we kind of talked about this in our first part of our conversation, but really connects here.

00:03:09:00 - 00:03:29:09
Cullen
You want to look for concepts more than like techniques or recipes. You know, like techniques and recipes can go away. Tools can change. Someone else can come in and tell you the next day, like, here's a I'll give you a concrete example. If I learn like some sort of really nifty combo of lift, gamma and gain from some video and I'm like, wow, they got good results in their video.

00:03:29:09 - 00:03:57:03
Cullen
I'm getting good results on the 3 or 4 videos I've tried it on now, and then I meet some rockstar colorist who, like, I can barely even speak around because I'm so starstruck by their credential and they say, dude, never do that again. I have no foundation from which to say I'm sorry, but that works for me. Like I have no foundation from which to really refute that, as opposed to if I've learned a concept and I've seen it play out and I've seen it apply better and worse in different situations.

00:03:57:03 - 00:04:04:20
Cullen
But I know that concept is right. Even if the best color in the world tells me that, I can confidently say, dude, I totally get it.

00:04:04:20 - 00:04:07:18
Robbie
That's just this is just the way I prefer to do it, right? Yeah, yeah.

00:04:07:20 - 00:04:10:11
Cullen
And I've had those conversations before like plenty, you know?

00:04:10:11 - 00:04:25:16
Robbie
Yeah, I feel like, like, teal and orange is is something that we, you know, that is the kind of like that, right? It's like everybody has their own recipe to do it. And if I hear what you're saying, it's more about, do you know why it's teal and orange? First of all. Yes. Do you know, like like you didn't like.

00:04:25:18 - 00:04:31:18
Robbie
So you could do it with this set of tools. You could do it this set of tools or whatever. It's more of the motivational factor behind it. What I hear you saying.

00:04:31:18 - 00:04:46:06
Cullen
Yeah, why are you doing it? How are you doing it? How much control do you have over it? How much control do you have over revising it? If you see it the next day and you're like, dude, what was I thinking? Or your client says that to you? Those are like all big factors. Just as much as like, hey, look what that person on this video did.

00:04:46:06 - 00:04:51:01
Cullen
As you said, Robbie on this one still frame in this world environment like you've got it.

00:04:51:02 - 00:05:19:06
Joey
Yeah. When it comes to any kind of technique, I think repeatability is so important. Like and I think that gets lost in a lot of what we would consider the hypothetical lower quality educational resources out there where somebody says here, look at these steps that I took to make this image, and you could try repeating those exact steps, but without a concept behind of the why, those steps will not make the same result on every image.

00:05:19:09 - 00:05:45:18
Joey
And that technique might work horribly on some images. And then if you don't have that kind of width of, calling, how you put it, where this applies to a wide variety of things versus one specific thing, then you're not only going to not really gain anything from the education, you might harm yourself because you're going to paint yourself into a corner on a project and find like, look.

00:05:45:23 - 00:06:08:02
Robbie
Look, look. Lookup tables are a perfect example of that, right? I can't tell you how many people over the years I've I've interacted with, you know, they're like, you know, up until 3:00 in the morning downloading lookup tables, trying this one, trying that one, whatever. Because they have no underlying understanding of how the, you know, how the actual lookup table works, what the input space is designed for, etc., etc..

00:06:08:04 - 00:06:33:11
Robbie
And so yeah, they just keep trying. But like I guess another way of asking a similar part of this is just like, what's do look, you know, is it important to look at sort of the bona fides of somebody giving the education because like one of the things I think that is, is challenging. And I and I found in my own personal journey is that, you know, the best practitioners don't always make the best educators.

00:06:33:11 - 00:06:56:06
Robbie
Right. And sometimes there's always there's sometimes there's really good educators that couldn't grade a film to help themselves, but they can explain concepts really well. Right. So like in your experience, like in I guess, like, do you find that the best educators are the ones who are balancing that out, like doing the craft and then talking about it?

00:06:56:08 - 00:07:05:11
Robbie
Or do you find that like you can do one side or the other? You can you can, you know, be a professional trainer, professional colorist, but or do you have to mix those two together?

00:07:05:13 - 00:07:26:13
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, it's it's so tricky because you ultimately are. You're totally right. You can't correlate. I have seen unproven practitioners teach really, really good stuff. I have very seen very proven practitioners teach stuff that's like, dude, you are like, that's borderline malpractice to be saying what you are saying right now. That may work for you in your scenario right now.

00:07:26:13 - 00:07:47:16
Cullen
But to go back to my principle of robustness, that will not travel for the people you're conveying is here right now. But I've also seen the opposite. I've seen unproven practitioners teach dumb stuff, and I've seen proven practitioners teach really good stuff. So it's all four quadrants, you know. Yeah. So I do think like you can I would put it this way, you can use those things more to confirm than to refute.

00:07:47:18 - 00:08:01:21
Cullen
Like if someone's really good at what they do. Do you mean like, okay, that's a clue. That doesn't mean this information will be good, but it means it could be good. Whereas like, if you're like, oh, an unproven practitioner, that means they could not be good. I think that's probably less true.

00:08:01:22 - 00:08:18:09
Robbie
Okay. Fair enough, more fair enough. So still like so then in a situation where, you know, I think that, you know, in Joey, Joey, before we got on the record, Joey was teasing you a little bit about your, your, your group, he's following you around NAB and other, you know, trade floors and stuff like that, but like.

00:08:18:11 - 00:08:45:09
Robbie
Yeah, right. I think that, like, you know, people look up to you as, you know, you are a trusted source of this education stuff. And now they want to do it. Like, is there another challenge of like, I want to teach people, but I don't want to teach people to be mini koans, right? Like, you know, like, that's like I knowing you, that's not your goal, but like, yeah, that seems like a good a little bit of a danger point or a balancing act that you might have running your own community, teaching people your methods, etc..

00:08:45:09 - 00:08:59:20
Robbie
Is that like, you know, how do you how do you balance people? Okay, fine. They brought it on to you. They like your with your style. How do you get them to develop on their own rather than just like mimicking everything that, you know, you as caller still?

00:08:59:22 - 00:09:12:16
Cullen
Yeah, man, I think about this one all the time so that the things that come to mind, first of all, are like just that continued emphasis in all areas, whether we're talking about craft or collaboration. You know, remember, I coach color is two in.

00:09:12:16 - 00:09:14:12
Robbie
Small, right. Yeah. Yeah. We're getting to have groups.

00:09:14:12 - 00:09:32:22
Cullen
It gets you know, we talk about we talk about sales, we talk about marketing. We talk about what's going on in your personal life that's blocking you up professionally. It really runs the spectrum. And there's the danger multiplies in those areas. And I'm like, am I just going to teach you guys all to be a 39 year old man who lives in Southern California, and he's got a three year old and a one year old.

00:09:32:22 - 00:09:49:15
Cullen
It's crazy, right? Like, that's not really a good goal for anybody, right? So I think like the principles of the number one thing that guard against that I'm not teaching you recipes, I'm teaching you principles. And the other one is again like captured in my book, The Color is Ten Commandments. Chapter ten. The last chapter question assumptions like I'm going to tell you some stuff.

00:09:49:19 - 00:10:08:06
Cullen
Now you have to go test it and you have to see if it works. And if it doesn't work, you're dumb. If you keep applying, you know, which is something that I don't think it's emphasized enough in a lot of education. Like you have to go battle test us. And if for whatever reason it doesn't work, you need to come back and be like, what am I missing?

00:10:08:06 - 00:10:24:14
Cullen
What do I need to better understand or say, hey, that doesn't work? That teacher or that teaching is not for me. Like that's a huge part of what led to like a lot of the stuff I teach, I teach the opposite of stuff that I was taught, and I came to the things in the convictions that I teach because I was like, dude, that's wrong.

00:10:24:16 - 00:10:43:18
Cullen
Like, you are incorrect about that. I don't believe that to be the right thing, you know? But that had to come from being given education that I was glad to receive, and then giving myself the opportunity to question the assumptions, regardless of the source, even from people who I know, like, respect, you know, even to this day, mentors to this day, plenty of stuff that they've taught me that I'm like, that just doesn't hold for me.

00:10:43:18 - 00:10:45:03
Cullen
I don't believe it's right.

00:10:45:05 - 00:11:08:00
Robbie
Yeah. And I mean, I, I do think I mean, I think it's always I like to think about it too, as you're not going to gel with every single student. Right? I mean, I think, I think three of us have been in a situation where like, you know, let's say for sake of argument, we're more or less saying all the same things, but somebody gravitates to the way that Joey said it versus me or versus you, whatever.

00:11:08:00 - 00:11:25:10
Robbie
Right. And that just happens. Like, you can't you can't win everybody, right? Like you can't be the guy for everybody. Which is which is a challenge. Now, let me ask you, this is what I'm really fascinated about by you and I, I gotta say, like, I have a little bit of a man crush on this part of your life, right?

00:11:25:12 - 00:11:48:23
Robbie
And that is. Is that, like, I've always considered myself to be like, a risk taker, try new things, start a new business, try this or whatever. But it seemed to me like you were Cullen, you're the guy on YouTube doing these cool videos, and then it's like all of a sudden snap of fingers. I now have this little bit of an empire that I've built with the community and products and stuff.

00:11:49:00 - 00:12:10:17
Robbie
Obviously, that was a very intentional approach to how you were going to do things. What was the like? How did you conceive of that design of it? What are the parts of that that go into it for you? Right. Like how does that you're how does the empire of Cullen Kelly, how does that work in terms of how all the different pieces of the puzzle play with each other?

00:12:10:19 - 00:12:28:00
Cullen
Listen, I, I just love to serve and build up colors. That's my thing. And it's it was less of a calculated day. One grand picture. It's more a picture that has gotten bigger and clearer as the path has unfolded. And it's one that the further I've gone down it, I'm like, it's it doesn't even feel like a choice.

00:12:28:00 - 00:12:56:07
Cullen
I'm like, there just has to be room in my life for doing this. At the largest scale, to the best of my ability that I can. I just feel like I feel very, very this is what I meant to do, with my time is to support and to nurture and to grow people who are like me and who people, people who need what I needed at critical points in my journey and who didn't, and who I can give it to at points that I didn't have and I just had to, like, stumble around and make mistakes and take the long way.

00:12:56:07 - 00:13:01:14
Cullen
Like, I'm really, really passionate about being there for those people and giving them a different experience.

00:13:01:16 - 00:13:24:16
Joey
And yeah, that's something that, you know, Robbie and I've talked about at length and never really had a good answer to is the fact that, you know, when we grew up in the industry, mentorship looked extruded, ordinarily different than it looks now, right? All three of us worked at post houses. I was, you know, you know, I was at a post house from a very young age.

00:13:24:16 - 00:13:51:20
Joey
Robbie got his start at a post house we always had. At least he and I had very good access to, I would say, pretty high quality mentorship. Everything that we've talked about thus far in terms of, you know, how to learn, what to learn stuff applies to that as well. But the access was there because we started early in a post-production world that simply doesn't exist anymore.

00:13:51:22 - 00:14:15:00
Joey
In terms of the generally, the large post house, the junior guy coming up under the the, the senior working on the same projects, the same clients in the same building. How does that look to you? I mean, I've obviously you I think you come to mind when, when the, the more when the idea of modern mentorship, mentorship of colorists.

00:14:15:00 - 00:14:31:07
Joey
So your community and the way you're doing it seems to really come to mind first and one I think that's fantastic. But how do you feel about, you know, mentorship versus how mentorship used to be versus how we can do mentorship today.

00:14:31:09 - 00:14:51:15
Robbie
And that and sorry to interrupt, but that's why I said, like, I felt like it was an intentional thing because it seems like to me that you like, teaching people how to use resolve was never going to be good enough in your in the grand plan, right? It was I need to have these discussions with you about how to deal with crappy clients.

00:14:51:17 - 00:15:08:23
Robbie
I need to have those discussions with you about dealing with, you know, old invoices and the proper way of getting paid. And I need, you know, all those parts of it were like, you know, part of the bigger picture that everybody needs to know, but not a whole lot of people are focusing on in a more kind of unified way.

00:15:08:23 - 00:15:30:19
Robbie
Right. Like I can go and watch some, you know, some person on YouTube about color training, but then I'm going to watch somebody else about business practices or reading a book about and it seems like you've you've, you've been able to unify that. And it's just it's pretty fascinating to see that in practice because like I, I watch a lot of times in your, in your discord community, you know, when people purchase your products, they can get.

00:15:30:19 - 00:16:00:23
Robbie
That's worth noting, by the way, people take your classes, you know, purchase your products, etc. they can get into this pretty amazing discord community. It just seems like that's just inherent to that community. Now. People like everybody transitions from we're talking about, you know, matrix transforms in one one post to talking about like getting paid for past bills and another one to talking about my my spouse is about to throw something at me because I've been at the office for, you know, 18 hours, right?

00:16:00:23 - 00:16:22:21
Robbie
And it's just like, that's a real world life situation for people who get into this business. And it's always been, I think even when I was doing education more than I'm doing now, it was really hard to explain to people and it just seems like, I don't know, I it feels intentional to me, but it's interesting to hear you say that now, just the way it pans out kind of thing, where teaching a little bit of, you know, the color is like.

00:16:22:23 - 00:16:42:18
Cullen
Well, I mean, thank you for, those compliments. That's really nice to hear. And I will say there's there's intent there in the sense that, like, I, I really make the effort to I have an impulse. I think a lot of colors have this impulsive like, I like being in, like a quiet, dark cave where it's like me and a couple of clients, like.

00:16:42:18 - 00:16:43:04
Robbie
That's right.

00:16:43:08 - 00:17:19:18
Cullen
For sure. You know, like, and I try to moderate that impulse and be willing to share things that I learn, even if they're messy, even if they don't like, cast me in the most like, favorable light. And I love learning stuff and I love learning in the areas that you're, we're talking about, not just like the actual craft of color grading, but like with the craft of being a creative professional and, you know, like how to work with clients, how all these different dimensions, personal development, like all these aspects of just being a fully dimensional human being, like, I really try and struggle and strive and fail to like, achieve and all those areas.

00:17:19:22 - 00:17:23:09
Cullen
And I try to like as I gather those lessons, I try to give them right back.

00:17:23:09 - 00:17:43:11
Robbie
And really, do you do you find do you find it challenging to be that transparent with your community, though, to be like, you know, because it's really easy to share wins, right? It's much harder to share, like the failings. Right. Is that is that did it take time to develop that level of vulnerability, that where you were comfortable doing it, or is that just something that you've always kind of been that way?

00:17:43:11 - 00:17:45:18
Robbie
You've always been like, yeah, I'll talk about whatever.

00:17:45:20 - 00:18:08:20
Cullen
Oh no, no, it took that. I've, I've historically been a very, like guarded, private person. And I've learned that the only actual failures come from hearing that impulse. It's like, oh, I'm just going to, like, hide my pain and not learn from it and not allow anyone else to learn from it and try to protect myself and sort of like, wall myself in, in that way that ten times out of ten will be a fail.

00:18:08:22 - 00:18:15:09
Cullen
Meanwhile, sharing things that in the moment may feel like a failure. Often in the act of sharing, you realize, oh wait, there's actually.

00:18:15:12 - 00:18:18:09
Robbie
Somebody else had that exact same problem or issue or whatever, right? Yeah.

00:18:18:09 - 00:18:41:01
Cullen
And even just the process, like, I know you guys have had this, like how many times when you're talking to your spouse, you just by talking through something that you experienced realize like, oh, wait, that was for me. Or like there's something really valuable to glean from that experience. So like, no, like the more I've gotten into that cycle of like, yeah, I just try to be honest and authentic and share, you know, what I'm doing in my life the more I've gotten hooked on it.

00:18:41:03 - 00:19:01:13
Robbie
I think it's so important because I think it's it's so easy. And and I've had this experience, I, I've read about it in your community, too, where people have literally I've read people literally saying, oh, I didn't realize that, you know, Cullen was an approachable guy. I didn't realize that he had had that problem too. I have that problem.

00:19:01:13 - 00:19:21:22
Robbie
Right. And it just seems that, like, you know, in the YouTube education type of world where everybody's just trying to put their best foot forward and show everything is, you know, is unicorns, right? Everything is magic. Yeah. It's good to see those like those problems, right. Because that's the real world. Like, shit, I didn't I didn't build a job in the past three weeks.

00:19:21:22 - 00:19:40:21
Robbie
I'm screwed making my rent or whatever. Like, that's those are real world problems and I, I don't know, I just think that that that is, that is a pretty again, not to elevate too much and give you too many, positive reinforcement. But like, that's a lovely thing about your community is that. Yeah, just that vulnerability, of being there.

00:19:41:03 - 00:19:52:16
Robbie
It's just a nice breath of fresh air just because it's sort of like, okay. Yeah, we can, you know, we're in this sort of safe place where people can talk about this stuff and not be judged about screwed up. That's that's a great thing that right.

00:19:52:17 - 00:19:56:17
Cullen
Now that thanks for saying so and we can I'm sure all agree like when we've got I.

00:19:56:17 - 00:20:05:15
Robbie
Mean I'm still not over my printer. I'm still not over the fact that I don't use printer points as much as I should. But that's fucking right. But you know what? I remember?

00:20:05:17 - 00:20:06:01
Cullen
Is I.

00:20:06:04 - 00:20:06:16
Robbie
Remember.

00:20:06:18 - 00:20:32:05
Joey
The internet is not not the real world. And it's so easy to look at, especially when you do look at some of the, the not to keep badmouthing YouTube, but you, you look at some of the stuff that people put their best stuff out on YouTube. I had this big win. This thing looks amazing. Whatever. That doesn't really show you the 15 other projects that somebody might have done that they did their best on.

00:20:32:05 - 00:20:40:17
Joey
But like, they got really bad footage that was shot really terribly. And it's never going to be art, but I'm making my career here. That's not what I mean.

00:20:40:18 - 00:20:41:15
Robbie
It's it's hard.

00:20:41:16 - 00:20:44:19
Joey
To judge yourself based on everybody else's wins. Only.

00:20:44:20 - 00:21:06:17
Robbie
That is a great point, Joey, because like, sometimes, like it might be a bigger win to turn up like a bucket of turds into something that's watchable than it is to deal with, like the best content. And just like, you know, when we've we've had a, conversation in the years past with our mutual friend Walter Roboto and I, I remember talking to Walter about, you know, grading Star Wars or whatever.

00:21:06:17 - 00:21:22:13
Robbie
He's like, like, what did you have to do? It's like two Star Wars. I like it was it was easy, like, you know, not easy, but like, you get to a certain point where it's just like, you know, he talks about respecting the photography a lot, and that discussion, and it was like, cool, man, I wish I could respect the photography, but they had no idea what they were doing.

00:21:22:15 - 00:21:47:01
Robbie
And I feel like it's a bigger, bigger win getting it in shape than it was. You know, working on Star Wars or whatever, right? So that's cool for sure. Let me ask you one more practical community question is what does, knowing that people operate in different ways? Some people are visual learners, auditory learners. It seems like you've, you know, you've kind of, done a good mix of like, okay, this stuff's going to be asynchronous on YouTube.

00:21:47:03 - 00:22:06:06
Robbie
These are live streaming sessions with me. Maybe here is, an article or a newsletter, like how do you do you try to offer different ways for people so they can best gravitate for what works for them? Or is are you still trying to figure out, like, okay, I'm trying to figure out what sticks with people and resonates?

00:22:06:06 - 00:22:08:05
Robbie
Like, what's the thinking behind that?

00:22:08:07 - 00:22:27:13
Cullen
Yeah. You know, you're right. There are different forms of communication. And we're always kind of thinking about and playing with that. And there's like for example, I would love to be doing more stuff in person. I've done more in-person education, like in the last I know, year or so. Then definitely the 3 or 4 prior to that. And that's a very unique, special thing.

00:22:27:18 - 00:22:55:08
Cullen
Oh, and you get to do that. So like that's its own category that I want us to be doing way more and and same thing like, you know, even just a prerecorded YouTube video versus a prerecorded video that is distributed in some other way. Those are different. Certainly we've learned, like from all of my courses that I've done, my the thing that I love most, like, if I like I feel like where I'm most effective if if you want to learn from me where I can give you the most is if we're doing something live.

00:22:55:10 - 00:23:08:13
Cullen
And I've kind of learned that, just from experience, like I am the least self-conscious, the least, at least self editing, just sort of by inherent format. So like, you're going to go back and do another take like that's going to have to do dude. So, you know, get out of my head.

00:23:08:15 - 00:23:27:21
Robbie
Can I tell you something? And this is a little inside baseball. One of the reasons that I have gravitated a little bit away from tutorial type stuff over the past five, 6 or 7 years is because I was like the the worst with it, right? Like, I can get up. I'm at my my wife makes fun of me all the time that I'm like an introverted extrovert, right?

00:23:27:23 - 00:23:47:08
Robbie
That like, I could get up, you know, one time I got up at, Adobe Max and there was like 6500 people in the crowd, and I got up and gave a presentation. Right. Totally. No problems with it. Right? But sitting in front of the computer and trying to record something by myself and like, flubbing like, stop, record, rerecord, stop, rerecord.

00:23:47:11 - 00:23:52:19
Robbie
And it just you can get in your own head about that stuff, man. But I'm with you. Live. Live is where it's at.

00:23:52:21 - 00:23:57:14
Cullen
More fun. Yeah. You can get mental doing those, you know, talking to a camera sessions for sure.

00:23:57:16 - 00:23:58:08
Robbie
Yeah for sure.

00:23:58:08 - 00:24:17:15
Cullen
I love the live format, whether that's remote or in person, but I think they all serve different purposes. I, for example, I know we've got a course coming up. We're going to be doing an August where we're going to get to do a hybrid for the first time, where we will have, you know, like as many people as we can fit into my theater in person, but it's also going to be going out a resume to a lot more people than that.

00:24:17:17 - 00:24:19:22
Cullen
And that way we get to scratch that itch on both sides.

00:24:19:22 - 00:24:47:07
Robbie
Do a little bit of both, right, I gotcha. What? So we've talked a lot about the role of you as the educator. What is what does a student need to be doing to get the most out of education these days? Right. Because, I mean, it's not like you can just I mean, whether that's everything from, you know, prerequisites and previous experience to just having an open mind, like, what could you what advice could you give people who are trying to learn this stuff to become better students at it?

00:24:47:07 - 00:24:53:11
Robbie
Right. Like what? What characteristic and things should should people be doing to get more out of training like yours?

00:24:53:13 - 00:25:11:11
Cullen
You know, it's when this kind of question comes up. I the the same lesson from college always comes up from film school, which is funny because like, you know, people ask me about, you know, film school or should I go to film school on like 2025? The answer's definitely no. For me, at least in any application I can think of.

00:25:11:11 - 00:25:28:16
Cullen
Like, you can go to YouTube University at this point. So I feel like I end up talking kind of a lot of smack on film school, but I actually got a ton out of film school. And one of those things was a lesson that I'll share right now. This was something from a writing teacher who said, look, if you want to be a really good writer, you only have to do three things right.

00:25:28:18 - 00:25:48:12
Cullen
Rewrite and watch movies like a writer. That was this whole pitch, and you can transpose that 1 to 1 into color grading. I think it works. Grade, grade more and watch movies like a colorist. Like if you don't do anything else, like you can be drinking from a really high quality knowledge source. You can be drinking from the tap.

00:25:48:14 - 00:26:21:22
Cullen
Hopefully that you find you gravitate toward the better stuff over time as your knowledge increases. But all else being equal, just doing those three things you will grow over time. And then if you start to put a couple bonuses on there like, hey, be mindful of learning concepts over techniques. Hey, be mindful of discerning between people who can really share things that are going to serve you well in lots of projects for a lot of years, versus people who are just going to make you feel good for the next three weeks, like you start to overlay those things on there and you can build up a really good, really simple answer to that question of

00:26:21:22 - 00:26:26:08
Cullen
like, how do I how do I become a lifelong student of this stuff?

00:26:26:10 - 00:26:50:05
Robbie
Yeah, yeah. Because I think, you know, I think one of the challenges that I've, I've personally faced is I, you know, I'll learn a new technique and then it's just sort of like I have blinders on for a while, right? Where I just feel like I'm just doing that thing for the longest time. And it takes some conscious thought to kind of go, okay, nope, I'm gonna put that in the toolbox of things I know and move on to the next one, right?

00:26:50:05 - 00:26:53:01
Robbie
Because it's like it's very easy to get stuck in your ways. Right?

00:26:53:02 - 00:26:57:18
Joey
It's inertia and momentum can be an enemy to to growing.

00:26:57:20 - 00:27:28:17
Robbie
Yeah. Yeah I, I agree with that. Just just a few more questions and then we'll, we'll wrap this up. I'm curious. So you mentioned kind of like the business side of things. And you also mentioned kind of just like the, I don't know, lack of better term, the life management thing. I think, you know, we've talked about it on previous episodes that we've done just about how I think that there's this, this picture, this or that a lot of people have about professional callers, especially those at the top of the game, that it's all just roses, right?

00:27:28:17 - 00:27:49:20
Robbie
It's just like you walk into a room every day and everybody's soaked and it's high fives all around. Like, have you found that side of your educational practice to be harder in some ways to communicate, to talk about like, because it just seems to me every time I want to get into that kind of stuff, people are like, no, no, no, but we're here to learn about color.

00:27:49:20 - 00:28:07:23
Robbie
We're not here to learn about, like, your life experiences, but like, it seems to me it's very much one of the same. Like we've talked a lot of joy, and I've talked a lot about how, like, you know, in the context, like of having clients in the room, that's that's 90% of the room is like, is owning the room, controlling the room, managing the room.

00:28:08:05 - 00:28:29:01
Robbie
You could be a crap colorist and still have everybody give you high fives at the end of the session, right? Have you had you found that as you've gotten more into that side of things, that it's just different for you as an educator or like, I imagine the color stuff comes pretty naturally, kind of just flows. Does the life stuff, the business stuff, is that harder to teach on some level.

00:28:29:03 - 00:28:41:16
Cullen
It it is hard, I think, in the exact sense that you described a minute ago that like, there can be some sort of like hesitance or like shyness of like, man, what do these people want to hear this. They just want to see some color grading. Right?

00:28:41:16 - 00:28:42:14
Robbie
Like right. Yeah.

00:28:42:16 - 00:29:07:13
Cullen
Shut up and stay on message. Yeah. But the thing that like, I'm, I'm sure, we'll track for you guys is like, the longer you stay in this game, the more you realize, like, oh, the client thing, like, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Like, dude, the energy you walk into a room with is everything. That's why that example we gave, like at some point in one of our conversations about like, some of the top practitioners in the game are not necessarily the best teachers.

00:29:07:13 - 00:29:25:16
Cullen
Right? Practically astute. You just like like, here's what I'll say. I'll, I can I can like frame it as an example. Every single of like, you know, the really, really elite, top level, color grading practitioners I've met in my career. You stand across some of them, you're like, okay, yeah, I get it. I'd spend that amount of money to spend time in a room with you.

00:29:25:16 - 00:29:29:19
Cullen
You're just great. I just love your energy. You make me feel better in my body by and.

00:29:29:23 - 00:29:35:02
Robbie
And that's just. That's just like the personality and the way that they're managing the room, not the way they're pushing the buttons. Yeah.

00:29:35:04 - 00:29:50:22
Cullen
Yeah, that's an even more than like, this is like where I feel like some of my confidence of sharing things that are outside of the color field come into play as like those colors. It's not even just the way they're managing the room. It's the way they're living their lives. Like they're not like slamming a six pack on the way to the office.

00:29:50:22 - 00:30:04:17
Cullen
They're not like, you know, mowing down Cheetos and like wiping it off on their shirt when they get in the room, like they're taking care of themselves mentally, physically, like lifestyle and all these different areas. Like they're a complete, realized, happy, whole person for the most part.

00:30:04:22 - 00:30:10:00
Robbie
Which which, which can be a challenge in our industry to be a happy person. Right? Yeah.

00:30:10:02 - 00:30:26:18
Cullen
So and that's why those people that that's what makes them exceptional just as much as anything else. And as like that started to become really obvious to me. And more and more obvious to me is as long as I've stayed in this game, it's just gotten to me like, look, you might think this is what you need to hear or not, but I know it's what you need to hear.

00:30:26:22 - 00:30:42:17
Cullen
You say you want X and you think it involves, you know, it's like people who go to the doctor and say, doc, my arm is broken. Put a cast on it. It's like, okay, I will diagnose. I will decide whether your arm is broken or whether something else is going on. That's my job as your doctor or as your educator.

00:30:42:17 - 00:30:52:10
Cullen
So that's something that I feel like I've found more confidence and clarity and is like, look, I'm going to prescribe what I believe to be what you need, not what you tell me what you need.

00:30:52:12 - 00:31:13:02
Robbie
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's really true. And I think that it's, I think we're also at a point in time where people are, whether it's mental or physical health issues, whether it's, you know, some of this stuff that we've in the past, I think, just feel like people are more open, right? Like people are more understanding of these conversations, which I think is really is a really good thing.

00:31:13:04 - 00:31:38:00
Robbie
So somebody, you know, comes into the call and color universe and starts out with maybe one of your live classes, or maybe you got to know you from your, your newsletter or something like that, and they stay with you for a while. Like as you as the practitioner of this practice. What what is what is success like when you start with a student and they and they at a certain point they're off on their own doing their own thing or whatever, how do you measure that?

00:31:38:00 - 00:31:58:07
Robbie
Hey, our process, my community is an an ongoing thing that you hope they never leave. Or is there a point where you're like, nope, I'm ready to launch you out into the world and you're good? What is a measure of that? You've done your job and the holistic way that you've described over these past two. You know, two shows for us, like you're doing a lot for people where where is the mark that you've done a good job?

00:31:58:07 - 00:32:15:00
Cullen
The man it can look like so many different things. Like I am one of the big first hurdles I had to get over early in my life. My YouTube channel I it 100% like really the whole brand. I owe it to my wife. She was the one who was like, dude, you should do this. And I was, I like, there's no way I'm giving this away for free.

00:32:15:02 - 00:32:37:07
Cullen
I spent so much time like acquiring this. There's no way I'm giving away most of what I know for free, because that is what I do today. I give away most of what I know for $0. So like the and I now have like a huge portion, most of the people who engage with my brand watch a video, watch half a video, maybe drop a like, maybe drop a comment, go and apply it, hopefully get something out of it and they may go no further down the highway than that.

00:32:37:07 - 00:33:02:09
Cullen
They're basically taking that exit off of it. That can be success. I'm not mad that me and that person crossed paths, however briefly. You know, the other end of it is like, you know, I've got a I feel like especially a community members and even more so than that, my coaching clients who are the sort of like smaller community within the community to see those people go and win at the like highest level within this business.

00:33:02:11 - 00:33:19:05
Cullen
That is definitely an easy answer to that question. Like, okay, like you were probably always, always going to kick ass. And I'm just glad that I didn't mess it up for you. And maybe I was able to help you steer and guide you along the way. So it's really everywhere along that path of like, whether you're on for, you know, like one mile and you take the exit.

00:33:19:05 - 00:33:22:04
Cullen
But do you enjoy the the pride for that? Cool. Or if you see.

00:33:22:04 - 00:33:45:07
Robbie
I just I'm so jealous of of your of a lot of your community members and doing this because at one level it's a genius move on your part. But like I just there's two things were never together for me in most of my professional life. It was the technical science kind of stuff. And then it was the like, like you go see a psychologist, you don't talk to your colorist buddy about this, right?

00:33:45:09 - 00:34:08:13
Robbie
Yeah. And it's it's just it's rewarding because like, about 2 or 3 years ago, I was just like, I was just, I don't know, kind of just in a bad place. So everybody had been gone in. We've gone through the pandemic and that was a big, you know, to do for a lot of reasons. I had, exited a couple businesses that I owned, and I was just like, I just wasn't engaged in what I was doing, sitting behind the panel doing that kind of stuff.

00:34:08:13 - 00:34:33:23
Robbie
And I realized that part of that was just like, I needed people in my life who also got it and understood. Right. And so, like, I look at your community and I don't really, you know, just because nobody want to hear me bloviating about things, but like, I don't participate that much in your community, but I like I watch it and it really even has like a as a viewer, it's really rewarding to that because I'm just sort of like, oh, okay.

00:34:33:23 - 00:34:42:04
Robbie
Yep. Now I learned something from that one. I learned something from that post and it's very holistic. So I think you're doing obviously an incredible job.

00:34:42:06 - 00:34:48:02
Cullen
Thanks so much. That's, that's that's what we're trying to do and means it means a lot to hear that. That's landing.

00:34:48:04 - 00:35:10:17
Robbie
Yeah I gotcha. All right. So you know obviously I've been singing your praises over two episodes here Cullen. But I want to be that guy for a second. And I want to be the troll. Right. This is something that everybody who has published anything. Has anybody who's ever tried to share knowledge, let's put it that way, has always had somebody coming back going, nah, that's a stupid way of doing it.

00:35:10:17 - 00:35:31:04
Robbie
What are they doing? And I'm sure you've been the recipient of a fair bit of that over the years in various forms. How do you internalize that and manage it, etc.? Because like, it can it can be hard. It can really get you down. I remember a conversation before I knew who he was. There's a relatively well known color science, scientists.

00:35:31:10 - 00:35:51:20
Robbie
And I was doing, I did a tutorial on like, this is 15 years ago, kind of like the basics of Luts, right? Not intending to talk about input, you know, input space, color spaces, output. Like not the math. It was just for it was for video editors. You don't really know how Luts work. You're an idiot.

00:35:52:00 - 00:36:06:21
Robbie
Why are you doing this? And, like, it really got me to me. Like, I was just like, I mean, I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm like, I'm, you know, even though that wasn't the audience, I still found a way to, like, internalize the feedback and the criticism. I'm curious, how do you deal with it? Because it can be.

00:36:06:22 - 00:36:09:23
Robbie
It can beat you down. Right? If you if you let it.

00:36:10:01 - 00:36:30:01
Cullen
Yeah. You know, I'll start by saying, like, I feel really fortunate when I look at, you know, I'm not a huge YouTube consumer, but I consume it enough to see that, like, people get all kinds of ridiculous stuff said to them. And commented on their videos. And I feel like I don't even know fortunate. So I mean, I'll put I'll share this with you guys.

00:36:30:07 - 00:36:39:13
Cullen
I've gotten I feel like such a they've, they've treated me so nicely for the most part on YouTube. Every now and then I look around at the team and be like, are we doing something wrong? Or are we just like.

00:36:39:13 - 00:36:41:10
Robbie
You know, we're not Russian in enough feathers, right?

00:36:41:13 - 00:37:10:06
Cullen
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But that notwithstanding, there's plenty of people who like, you know, there's plenty of stuff that comes in. It's like, wow, that cuts a little deeper, that stings or whatever. Like it's it's yeah, it's not something it's not that nice to hear. So I guess I feel like the principle that I return to, there's a couple things that I return to that, but like probably the biggest one is like I am I am willing to radically own my part of wanting to help.

00:37:10:08 - 00:37:26:22
Cullen
So like, that's what every video I put out on YouTube is for. I want to help. And if I didn't help, like, you got to take some ownership for that. Like anytime I do help, that's a handshake. That's a collaboration. So like in the same way that I can't take sole credit for helping you. If it helps, I can't be solely responsible if I don't help.

00:37:27:00 - 00:37:45:02
Cullen
But short of like A01 hundred split where I own all of the fault, I'm willing to take responsibility. I like dude, I get it and and mean it when I say I'm sorry I wasn't able to help and use it as an opportunity to be like, all right, how could I have helped? Is there simply no way I could have helped this person in this venue?

00:37:45:02 - 00:38:00:13
Cullen
With the amount of time I had for talking about this topic, maybe a lot of the time there actually is something I could have done differently and that ends up fueling more content. That's the awesome thing about YouTube is like, you can always go make another video, you know? So I try to just make it a thing of like short of 100%.

00:38:00:13 - 00:38:07:02
Cullen
I'm pretty elastic in how much I'm willing to own of the help not working, you know, like I'm willing.

00:38:07:04 - 00:38:28:07
Robbie
Yeah, totally. And I've always thought about it. I'm Joey, I'm sure you felt the same way too, is that, you know, there's there's something about sharing knowledge that invites this, type of person to enter the mix where they just whether sometimes it's good spirited, they're trying to further the dialog or something, but oftentimes it's more of like a stump.

00:38:28:07 - 00:38:42:18
Robbie
The chump kind of thing. Right? And it's just like, you know, and I've had it often more so in person where somebody will be disruptive to the room and be like, yeah, but you didn't answer my question or what about this? And it's sort of like, would you like to come up here and leave the class, please? Right.

00:38:42:20 - 00:38:54:12
Robbie
It's it's like, you know, everybody can be armchair quarterbacks when they're not doing the work. And then every time that happens when you say, okay, cool. What's your perspective? Why don't you come up and tell everybody what your perspective is. They go, nah, I'm good, man, I'm good. I'm just gonna guessing when it.

00:38:54:16 - 00:39:15:00
Joey
Comes to because I've had this a few times because I, you know, when you especially when you put stuff out asynchronously online on whatever platform that we're talking about, you know, YouTube, some of the old, some of the tutorial sites that we've worked for, you know, forums, anything write. It offers the opportunity of someone to leave some comments.

00:39:15:02 - 00:39:40:19
Joey
And those comments can, be anywhere ranging from insightful and productive. And those are the ones I really like to engage with, especially even if I am wrong, if somebody if I put a tutorial out there or if I put a video out there somewhere, or we do a podcast episode and somebody comes says, hey, you know, you said this, it's actually more along these lines and we can have a conversation and it's productive.

00:39:40:19 - 00:39:58:21
Joey
And even if I'm I'm in the wrong and I say, oh yeah, no, that's a that's a great point. Let's expound on that some more. That's wonderful. Right. Yeah. To me, when I go down that road, there's a point where, I'll give anybody the benefit of the doubt and, and look at a comment and read it and think about it.

00:39:58:23 - 00:40:19:01
Joey
And then I immediately have the mental calculation of, am I going to respond to this? And I could kind of predict, right. And is this worth dipping into? And, you know, providing mental energy to and also amplify buying? Or is this just from people that not being is trying to beat you?

00:40:19:03 - 00:40:21:07
Robbie
They're just trying to band you and try to catch you out.

00:40:21:09 - 00:40:44:16
Joey
And that does not, in my mind, my being right or wrong on an issue does not have bearing on to if a comment or feedback is worth engaging with, right? It's all about how is it thought out? How is it said? Is this adding to the conversation? Am I going to learn something from this that then anybody else reading this thread can also learn?

00:40:44:18 - 00:41:05:12
Robbie
But just to play that flip side of the coin, the flip side of that coin is that I have found it over the years, some to be somewhat debilitating at times, and for this reason that you get in your head and then you then I run into this world of like, I have to be a completist about whatever subject it is I'm talking about, right?

00:41:05:13 - 00:41:16:12
Robbie
But I have to make sure that I dot every I and cross every tee because somebody is going to call me out for not mentioning whatever, and that can be hard to.

00:41:16:14 - 00:41:17:06
Cullen
That's right. Yeah.

00:41:17:06 - 00:41:36:09
Robbie
So it's very cool. Okay. Going hey, man, thanks for joining us today. I'm curious, we've talked a lot about your community, but tell us a little bit more about where people can find, you know, the YouTube channel where people can find the community, the various products you're working on. Give us the, you know, Cullen Kelly sales 101, pitch here for what you're working on.

00:41:36:09 - 00:41:36:23
Robbie
Yeah.

00:41:37:01 - 00:41:58:01
Cullen
Yeah, absolutely. So for those who don't know, you can find me on YouTube, youtube.com slash, Cullen Kelly, Q Lee and KTLA. Yeah, that's really the entry point for anywhere that you might want to go with me from there. So there's links to grab some of my free resources on there. And you know, from there we can, you know, that'll get you on my email list and you'll start hearing my musings, both professional and personal.

00:41:58:01 - 00:42:10:17
Cullen
Like we talked about today. And that's also how you end up finding out about things like courses that I do. And then I've got my I've got lots of other products and solutions and stuff out there as well that are usually best is discovered by watching my YouTube videos and seeing them in action and go like, okay, cool.

00:42:10:17 - 00:42:12:13
Cullen
I think that could help.

00:42:12:15 - 00:42:33:19
Robbie
Very cool. And I can speak from experience that, you know, some of the, the tool skills, some of the newer tools you're working on, like contour, like you can tell that Cullen's not just whip something up just for the fun of it. It's put it out there with a lot of a lot of, you know, intentional design and like, we got into a discussion about which way a slider should move earlier today, right?

00:42:33:19 - 00:42:40:17
Robbie
Like those kind of things. And he had great reasons that it should work the way it does. Right. So, I think it's great that you're putting that stuff out there for sure.

00:42:40:19 - 00:43:01:08
Joey
Just just one thing to add to that, we did an entire podcast episode on plug ins, and the conclusion of the episode was basically us talking about how why you shouldn't use plug ins because they're logistically difficult, and all the reasons why it could be paying yourself into a corner and then at the end of the episode were like, unless they're really, really good.

00:43:01:10 - 00:43:24:03
Joey
And they have a reason to be in your workflow. Everything from Cullen's original set of details that I used early on to contour and the other products that he has now that he's moved into the open effects world, which is honestly a much more advanced way of developing tools. They all fit in the category of this is if it solves the problem for you.

00:43:24:03 - 00:43:35:06
Joey
This is worth the effort of installing it on your systems. Managing license is paying for it. It's worth all of it to actually use those tools because they are excellent quality I agree.

00:43:35:07 - 00:43:53:09
Cullen
Yeah, no thanks for saying so guys. And I think you know, to the fun part about that question for me is like, you can apply the same principles that we've talked about, during our couple of conversations. And in my book, the color is Ten Commandments, like you know, the same principles that apply to color grading apply to plugins if it allows you to make greater gains for less effort.

00:43:53:11 - 00:44:05:12
Cullen
That's a point in its favor when it allows you to, you know, like think about like any of the things that I talk about in, my book, those same principles can be used as a valuation criteria for anything in the world of color grading.

00:44:05:13 - 00:44:25:02
Robbie
Excellent. Well, come on, we can't thank you enough for jumping on with us. I know that, our audience is going to find, a lot of really good nuggets in this discussion over the past, 90 minutes or so and breaking this up into two different episodes. Definitely worth, a listen or watching. For those of you who are just watching this part two, be sure to go back and watch part one as well.

00:44:25:04 - 00:44:39:07
Robbie
And look for Cullen on YouTube and all his various products. Like I said, our highest level of endorsement for, for everything that, that Cullen's doing. And if you are not a colorist, but a client also, and you're out there in L.A., be sure to, give Cullen and his team a call, too.

00:44:39:07 - 00:44:57:02
Robbie
They can help you with the next, creative project as well. Because he does actually grade too. Besides just run an awesome community. So that's really, really good stuff. I really appreciate you spending time with us. So for all of those of you who are following along, remember you can follow us on Instagram and on Facebook to search for The Offset Podcast there.

00:44:57:02 - 00:45:17:11
Robbie
We’re on all major podcasting platforms, including Spotify and Apple Podcast. You can of course find us on YouTube, and you can head over to the offsetpodcast.com for additional shownotes and additional links. And thanks again, Cullen. Joey, this has been a fun one. I think, was yeah, man, I've learned I've learned a whole bunch just from this conversation, and it's really great picking your mind.

00:45:17:13 - 00:45:22:02
Robbie
We'll have to we'll have to do it again sometime soon. So, really appreciate it, man. Thank you so much.